Solomon's Forum Posts

  • Solomon

    Sorry to say it but you are beating a dead horse. More or less this is marketing. It doesn't say that it will add +90MB to your game, but it also doesn't say that it will not add +90MB to your game. For what is worth, wrappers are mentioned.

    If you missed my previous reply, please read it:

    Is not an excuse, but other software does it too. For example engines that export to PS4 doesn't say that the PS4 kit is expensive, or Clickteam Fusion 2.5 that does not include ads, in-app purchases and a lot of functions in the standard version (80 Euro), you need the developer version (300 Euro), or RPG Maker MV that export only HTML5/NWjs doesn't even specify that uses wrappers... etc.

    From what I see, you already purchased a license and I don't know if Scirra refunds... And to add salt of wounds, not long ago GM:S and Fusion 2.5 had some limited time discounts (I've got GM:S Pro + Android Exporter + some Indie games + source codes of some games for 12 Euro).

    I can't say I'm 100% satisfied with Construct 2, but at the moment it does it's job and I've got the money I've paid and more.

    This thread is reaching the end of its life phase, as of now it really has been exhausted. I have shared what I think, and repeating myself will do little more. Like I said if only this thread was here before I was about to purchase C2. Not necessary would I not buy C2 in the future, but I would not buy it for my situation that I had at that moment.

    The moral is I guess, if you believe something firmly hold ground. And another one is, dont treat customers as garbage. And perphaps most important: never turst what is written 100% as the whole truth. As it is very probable that something has not been mentioned for marketing purposes, as it is always all about the money.

  • I'm with Solomon on this one. While for bigger games +60MB or +90MB is not such of bid deal, for simple Mario, Flappy Bird and other under 10MB games this is definitely a big downside. Let not even talk about +30MB for a Flappy Bird clone on Android <5.0 . And what is with the comparison with GTA V or Skyrim, are we comparing apples with potatoes ?

    Solomon

    Sorry to say it but as a customer is your duty to inform yourself about a product before buying (search, ask on forums, see some finished games ... etc).

    Another example is: http://www.rpgmakerweb.com/products/pro ... g-maker-mv Long story -> short: It exports only HTML5 and/or NWjs but isn't specified, you have to dig a little to find about it.

    The other way to get smaller games is to go native: Unity is arguably the best tool for indie developers, but you will need to learn coding, even if you use visual scripting like Playmaker. The same goes with Game Maker: Studio. The closest alternative to Construct 2 is Clickteam Fusion 2.5, but is more expensive and it also has it's fair amount of downsides like any other game engine.

    No matter what you write here will change the fact that Construct 2 is HTML5 engine and Ashley made it clear that he will not go native like Construct Classic. So is like "Take it or leave it" or "Take what you can get".

    On the bright side:

    C2 is focusing only on HTML5 so you get the best performance compared to other games engines that have a HTML5 exporter. Is fast. you can develop games really fast in C2. You develop once and runs on anything that supports HTML5. While HTML5 is slower than native, is supported by big corporations. It works great on mobile browsers (iOS 8, WP8, WP10, Android 5.0) without wrapper. There is a market for HTML5 games.

    You should ask yourself:

    Do I need the extra 60MB and the extra performance the native offers at the cost of more time to develop a game, or I can go with it and develop the game faster ?

    Even if you decide to go with another engine, you can continue using Construct 2 for smaller projects, or for quick sketching game concepts.

    Ashley

    Size definitely matters, especially on mobiles or in countries where the internet infrastructure is poor. And 245kb is definitely waaaay smaller than 60~90MB.

    Also, since the nw.dll is the same in all projects, can't be installed once and used by all games that uses NWjs ? To me this looks like a much better approach than integrating it in every small game.

    tgeorgemihai

    Thanks you for your input and for standing ground in what you think.

    I will look into the information you have provided in your post, as your post is infinitely more educational and informative when compare to the posts of one of the C2 devs, Ashley.

    At least there is someone here in this forum that sees the objective truth behind Ashleys answers, regarding ignoring the export size when it comes to my situation.

    I will only repeat that I have done everything to find out what I could about C2 and this one part was nowhere to be found. Not even in the free

    version.

  • Ashley

    [quote:3s5actmm]I just don't think it matters, which is why we don't specifically highlight it on our site, and I'm OK with that. We also don't mention the HTML5 export has a ~245kb overhead, which is a 1200% overhead if your game is 20kb, because it doesn't materially affect anything.

    You have got to be kidding. What kind of scewed perspective is that? Comparing 245 kb to 60mb overhead? Are you reading what you are writing?

    [quote:3s5actmm]Sure, someone could claim they want to run their game over a 56k modem and that overhead is too much...

    What? 56 modem? What are you talking about? Do you even know at this point?

    [quote:3s5actmm] ...but for such a significant majority of users, it is of no practical importance, so it does not warrant a mention.

    Significant majority of users? Are a significat majority of users sucessful? No only a few. Its these that have original and different ideas.

    [quote:3s5actmm]Since virtually nobody else has ever complained about the NW.js file size overhead, I also believe it to be of no practical importance to the vast majority of users

    Exporting to the web is a viable alternative with little overhead if your game is not for sale. If your game is for sale, e.g. on Steam, then customers in that market are accustomed to multi-gigabyte downloads so a 65mb download does not seem like a significant hurdle to commercial success.

    If the game is not directly for sale (e.g. a free hobby-made indie game), then web publishing seems to be a perfectly viable low-overhead alternative.

    And how to you base this? Was flappy bird (who care if it was for mobile) not a commercial success? Did one expect that it gets so much commercial success?

    I just took your last post as a "go f*** yourself" reply to me. Once again you purposefully did not answer my questions altough I politely asked you. This is your forum and you do not want to answer one of your customers that put a lot of effort in trying to see what the situation is with Scirras company policy. Everyone can make their own mind and opinion on what you are writing and how you are treating me.

    Fine if you dont want to anwser my questions to you I will answer based on your last post, them as I think I get the picture now. But first Ill adress you last post in more detail:

    [quote:3s5actmm]We also don't mention the HTML5 export has a ~245kb overhead, which is a 1200% overhead if your game is 20kb

    How is that putting things in perspective? Can you please show me games that weigh 20 kb that have nice graphics, sounds and are worthy of buying? Everyone can see your arguments not holding water. Firsly you talk about companies - coorporations that produce massive games that weigh 65GB like GTA and comapre this to indie. Now you take a different direction and talk about a game that weights 20kb... At what market are you aiming? Because I get the impression from what you write that Construct 2 is for people that make games 0<20 kb and 65>0 gb.

    Really now, you are talking about a game that weighs 20kb? Do you know anything about developing indie games if this is your argument? How come you are developing a tool for creating games and have such weak arguments, speaking about games that weigh 20kb? This is a viable question. Games that have 5mb>20mb can be of quality. When a game has 20mb the NW.js extra weight is about 300% that of the game. Which still is quite amusing to me. I can show you a lot of games that are 20mb and are of quality. Again as I told you in the previous posts and you decided to ignore this, as you could have adressed what I have written if you took the time to reply to one of your customers and not treat them as garbage.

    If you decided to not talk about this issue and seem that its OK that customer have a problem that you have not mentioned this fact, what else of importance have you decided not to mention (with reason) because you think its not relevant to indie devs that want to produce games using your software? I can only imagine... but Id rather not... And what is more I can only imagine you not giving a crap about that either.

    I am starting to get a picture to whom Construct 2 is marketed. To beginner indie game developers that are probably still very young, do not know anything about game making (which is fine but now comes the important part).

    In my opinion you are not telling anyone, nor giving a trial of the NW.js export, just in case, so that you dont lose customers who, once they find out that an export to NW.js adds a whopping (!)60mb(!) to the export, will simply decide to not use your engine, and whats more - not buy it. You are simply trying to aim yet at another market.

    In my opinion the fact that this has not been mentioned anywhere, the increase of mb's is simply a marketing ploy. I have a right to my opinion and I am basing this opinion on the effort and time you have put in to replying to my posts, and your weak arguments - that its because you dont think its important. Is it you making an indie game? Or your customers? I dont care if you dont think its not important, its not you making my game.

    You have not adressed almost anything I have written to you. Just talking about irrelevant game sizes - more than 65 gb or less than 20 kb. Did I say that 245kb overhead is too much to add to a game? No you have said it. How can anyone take you seriously now? How can I take you seriously? And you are developing a tool in which people develop games? Can you not see the difference between 60mb and 245 kb? Do I need to calculate this as a percentage for you and for everyone to see? Why are you yet again downplaying this and talking about people using a modem to download games? This is clear manipulation in any book.

    Once again you did not answer my question but are still talking about exporting to web. Did you not read any of my posts? Because that sure sound like it. You on your own forum are breaking the rules of using a forum by not reading posts and replying to them? Did I not write that I do not want to export to web? I think I will have to go back and bring up the quotes of parts of posts that I have quoted.

    Like I said once again I am bringing up the questions you so miserably failed to adress (these can be found on page 4, bottom post - for anyone that is interested):

    1) How is it that this information is nowhere to be learned - the fact that NW.js is 60-90 mb larger once exported. Your answer: Because I think its OK to do that. How is that an argument coming from a software dev? Because I think its OK? In other words you are telling me to go F*** myself. This can be a dealbraker for some people yet you still think that is OK.

    Again saying that I could use html5 as a substitute does not cut it as these do not work under the same conditions - NW.js being straight out of desktop, and html5 needing to be exported to the web. Can you imagine that for some this is a deal breaker? Also some people - like me for example do not want to publish to web. I only hope you dont start talking about how its better to publish to web, because as you know this thread is not about the reasons for publishing to web or not. - Your answer to this is talking about how it is viable alternative alternative to publish to web if your game is not for sale. Where did I write that I do not want to sell my game? I did not did I? Why are you not talking on subject, especially that there is so much material from me, so many questions that you could have chosen to answer, but did not do so on purpose.

    2) Why is there no way to test out NW.js export even under very strict limitations and still not inform people about the additional mb's? No answer. None what so ever. Ignored.

    I think I know why. I think you do to. Because some people wouldnt buy your software. There is no other explanation. If you were so confident this would not be a problem.

    3) Why is there no information about this size increase and that altough this increase in size is there, it will in no way possible affect performance (only download times). That this has to be learned by spending 1 day on the forum - and by asking around. - Because I think its OK, I dont think its important to most users.

    4) How can you compare hmtl5 export to NW.js export (especially to a customer that does not want to use html5) when both differ in the process of export and I imagine in the process of distribution. No answer. None.

    5) Is it possible to distribute a html5 exported game from C2 on DVD? ( why do I have the feeling that you will write about NW.js being 60-90 mb bigger will be of no problem on Dvd - but again that was not the question - remember it is you who suggested html5 export if I dont like the +60~90 mb). No anwser. None.

    And another post from me that you have not adressed:

    [quote:3s5actmm]

    I am a customer of Scirra and to this issue matters to me. As I am your customer and I am paying you for everything I expect from what information is provided and the free version I am testing out. Now if this matters to me - your customer - does it still now not matter to you?

    Remember it is not you making my game, it is still me making my game using your software. Now its my turn to make use of it.

    If you still say that this does not matter to you how does this make you look in terms of your priorities as a business?

    You think it doesnt matter to inform potential customers about the downsides of using your software? Not giving them a chance to get to know this in the free version, or to read this anywhere on the site? Is this good marketing ethics you think? Do you still think that this is of no importance?

    Why are you talking about industry standards and comparing GTA? What do I care if people are downloading gazzilions of gb through the internet?

    What If I was to do something else and that was the reason I have purchased your software? What If I wanted only to create a game to distribute only on an old school floppy disk, and that because of the lack of information regarding your product I have been working on a game and have lost all kinds of resources? Time, potential client and potential freelance gig?

    Does that still not matter to you?

    I am talking about something you did not mention anywhere to customers and now are trying to downplay as of no importance.

    To sum this up. This was about file size at first, but it ended up being mostly about principles and good business ethics.

    Now I would like you to refer to this post and show me what you stand for.

    While I know that it is important to have a thick shell when going solo or running a small business, however this is crossing the line. There time when one has to stand his grounds, and his strong arguments help that, and there are times when it is better for one to see what is really going on and show some honour.

    A simple "yeah, maybe you might be right in your case, I am sorry that you feel this way and that you lost a gig because of the fact that we have not mention this part that seems important to you" would do, and would end this thread a long, long time ago. Do you know what principles are?

    I think it is long time forgotten by you how it is to be an indie. I think you are way over that phase - at least mentally, on a good track to become a corpoation that just doesnt give a s***.

    Customers are divided into 2 different categories: the ones that will defend the software no matter what - as their livelyhood is dependant on it and they are either too lazy to learn different software, or simply dont have the time as they have families etc. etc. These people are reaaaally veeery elastic you can even s**t on them as a dev and they will tell you that it is raining - they are very software dependant. Then theres is another group: The people try to be objective, take it for what it really is to them. These are the most ambituous people. These people draw lines which are not to be crossed and they stick to those no matter what.

    When someone spits in my face I will not call it rain.

    It might be that I am too ambitious for C2. Or its that I am simply too ambitous for you? Maybe you want this software to stay only as a transition phase, so that people use it only as a stop before they go further. Maybe that is the reason that not so many sucessful games for desktop have been created with C2? Maybe that is the reason as I look through peoples profiles here, that a majority has a good start, seem inteligent and eager to learn and create, ask good questions on the forums, and then within a month maybe two months their participation in the forum diminishes and then completly stops?

    Look at my posts to see that I have really diged Construct 2. Look at some of the suggestions and the features that I posted for you to implement as they would have made this program so much better especially for people that come from animation and illustration as a background.

    I dont expect a response from you as you would only cherry pick the parts you want to reply to, which is a clear manipulation. Talking to you is like talking to the wind. Or talking into a well - mostly I only hear my own echo. You dont compare apples to apples, you compare planets to apple, and then you compare specks of dust to apples. You use all kinds of different manipulation tactics to throw me off (and to throw off other readers) what the real issue in this thread is. Talking bout modems (???), other custromers (???), comparing indie games to big coorporation games (???) then to size that dont have any meaning what so ever (???) ignoring my posts and questions as questions from your customer (???), not treating this matter as serious (???), trying to downplay and brush this off (???).

    I think you know that if this was a case in court that you would lose miserably. Let me just end this by putting this into a better perspective, my perspective for everyone to see:

    A person that has bought your software and closed the deal with a financial transaction, has bought your software as he thought your software matched the criteria he had to face in a contract he was been given. The reason he thought so is because upon purchasing your software, nowhere had it been stated (nor was he able to find out anywhere, or test it out for that matter) that your sotware will prevent him from accomplishing his task. That very task was to create a game that weighed less than 15 mb in a Windows stand alone application, while exporting from your software gave the program and additional ~60mb overhead which rendered the task impossible to complete.

    It is not your business why he wanted to do so as you only provide the tool, it is enough to say that your program prevented him from doing so. But it is your business not to mislead people by ignoring certain facts and sweeping them under the carpet, which can lead to future complications for your customers. And it is the business of others to make sure that you do not mislead people into thinking that they can achieve something that they evidently cannot.

    As the business transaction was not transparent in this case, it renders the contract as not valid.

    YOU: I dont think it matters. I think its OK.

    Standing ovation.

  • 100+ mb is a non-issue for most people, especially if it's for a game that's taken a lot of effort to make.

    See now this is nice. A reply that is on subject without personal prejudice.

    You are of course entitled to you opinion and I am entitled to disagree.

    While 100mb might be a non-issue for most people (altough Im not sure what kind of people you are referring to, and on what sources you base this information), it is an issue for me. Just yesterday I was looking around and found a nice game - standalone for Windows, something down my alley - adventure, nice graphics and I downloaded it played it, nice experience. I looked at the filesize and thought to myself - 20 mb. Now isnt that an achievement? Nice graphics sounds and only 20mbs?

    Now I will not mention what engine it was done in as I said Im not here to give away any names of potential competition.

    Regaring "a lot of effort" as you stated. Clearly planning a game does reqiure some effort does it not? The more you plan, the more effort goes into the project, does it not? Then comes the next development phase etc. What if I told you that I planned for the size of my game? (of course not ideally, roughly but within a reasonable limit). What if I told you that I had to plan for the size of my game? Surely that is additional effort on my part?

    So if I put effort into my game starting on a basic level/very early stage, of making sure that it does not weigh more than I want within a specific range, how does this relate to what you write - that people who put in effort to make a game do not worry about additional game weight?

    How I would put what you have written:

    100+mb is a non-issue for most starting indie game developers - as its another variable they have to take into consideration - which might be too much at the very start. Starting indies want to get something running. I know this I am a starting indie. But the difference is that I wanted that additional variable under control.

    Remember one more thing, we are talking about indies as this is software mailny for indies. We are not talking about multimillon dollar game coorporations hiring hundreds of staff members and producing games that weigh +65 gb. That would be out of contex and out of perspective to this matter.

    To sum this up - your statement is your statement. I respect your input.

    My statement is my statement as I am entitled to my opinion.

  • newt

    Firstly as this is my thread if you want to participate I urge you to adress what I have written at you and not simply ignore it.

    I have adressed a wall of text at you and you ignored it. What does that say about you when you ignore posts and still take participation in a forum thread? Manipulating much?

    This is a discussion and not your monologue. Take it somewhere else if you are not prepared to enter an *adult* discusion.

    If you do not know how to participate in forum discussion, I suggest you go read a FAQ somewhere.

    If this was a different forum you would have been issued with a warning for creating flame.

    [quote:kzu4pmzx]He is just trying to shame them into making it a policy to foresee every scenario.

    I suggest you stop refering to me in third person in my thread. That is not very polite. You are going at this at a personal level and taking this further. You are behaving like a little child. Dont like what is written here? Then dont look at it, as clearly you dont have any arguments what so ever, noone. You are just stomping your little feet around this thread, just to make some noise - like a child that wants candy from mommy.

    Nothing of essence or quality to say.

    I am not trying to shame noone. It would be ridiculous for anyone to forsee *every* scenario.

    Where did I write that? Where are you getting this assumption from? Why are you putting words into my mouth?

    Do you know what reading with understanding is? Do you know how to base your arguments on text and on a discussion?

    [quote:kzu4pmzx]Hundreds, perhaps thousands of issues op would demand to be told about before he even knew he needed to know.

    How do you base this? Once again what is this, do you have problems with understanding basic text? Do you live in fairytale land?

    Can you be less accurate than this in your comments?

    [quote:kzu4pmzx]Scenarios that include things they have no control of like third party wrappers.

    That's the only absurdity here.

    He made a novice assumption, and is now throwing a tantrum.

    The fact that someone - a company that wants to sell you their product - is using a third part wrapper which increases a size of a stand alone build should provide this information somewhere in small text at least. Do you not know that giving information about services/products one sells is important to the customer and necessary by law? I am almost afraid to ask on what basis do you sell your services to your customers? Judging by this you dont tell them anything, and then if they dont like something you just tell them they are throwing a tantrum.

    No, the only absurdity here is your post with your false accusations.

    Once again, visual coding is mailny for newcomers. That is a given. I say mainly. A newcomer is assesing a purchase on what he sees, reads, hears and most importantly tests out.

    Throwing a tantrum? Are you serious? Then you dont know what standing behind what one believes in is. If you want to stay a pushover that is easily pressured into sumbission when there is something you dont like then be my guest. But go do it somewhere else and stop spamming my thread.

    Why are you continuing to spam my thread with personal trips at my person?

    Adressing me in third person, ignoring what I write to you in response to your posts? How is this normal usage of a forum? You are behaving like a little child at this very moment.

    Why are you continuing to do this? Fame? Are you friends with the devs here as you seem to take this very personal? Does your entire livelyhood depend on something that I have mentioned in this thread?

    Have you got nothing better to do on a sunday?

    Do you want the mod to close this thread, as you are introducing flame here? Is that your motive?

    Do you just feel like "chatting" because you have nothing better to do?

    It is plain to see that it is you who is making this thread ugly. Perphaps you find this entertaining?

    I suggest you stop spamming my thread if you have nothing relevant to say.

    If you once more post and ignore what I am writing, then that only shows what you stand for - a nuisance in my thread.

    At this moment your posts here are a total waste of space and at this moment by replying here you are wasting my time.

  • >

    > But I have nothing more to add. My case is there with all my arguments.

    >

    You still haven't said what you want, after posting like 20 pages full of text.

    Do you want Scirra to change their product description? Make a suggestion.

    Do you want your money back? Write to .

    Have I not? Fifth post from bottom on page five:

    [quote:g1zuncbn]

    If this does not convince owners of Scirra to add a notation or add a very strict and limited NW.js export to the free version (while a notation is totally fine - and so little work to add that somewhere in small font and an asterix), then nothing will.

    Also have I not said I would like for Ashley to adress my latest post to him? Last post on page 5:

    [quote:g1zuncbn]

    I am only waiting for Ashley to *hopefuly* post one final post to adress my latest post to him.

  • newt

    [quote:3hexhayf]It's no one's responsibility to foresee every scenario in your adventures into game dev, but your own.

    Its my responsibility to forsee something that has not been mentioned anywhere? Are you reading what you are writing?

    I did forsee what I planed on doing to the extent I could.

    [quote:3hexhayf]No company, is going to make a selling point of what a product isn't designed for.

    You have got to be joking. The product is not designed to produce games for PC standalone, with smaller runtime sizes? Where is that to learn?

    Show me. Free version? Main page with features? Information is shown where?

    [quote:3hexhayf]They have provided information as to what it can do, as well as a forum to learn everything, for free.

    Point me to the information they provided regarding this information. Please do so. Prove it, go on as you as so sure of this. Point me where was this to be found. Go on. Show me how a starting out programmer can find this since it is not mentioned on the main page where the program that this concerns is sold.

    [quote:3hexhayf]If this was the only issue you ever ran into making games, then you would be the luckiest person alive.

    What is this statement? How is this an argument? What do I care? I have had a business contract sealed with a money transaction and it has not been totally transparent from my perspective for what I was to do and for what it was to do for me at that very moment in time. Other areas of C2? Fine but I am talking about my situation as it is my situation.

    [quote:3hexhayf]You're not, there will be true horror stories, and given this attitude you are likely to burn out way before the starting credits even roll.

    How is this an argument? How is this your business? This is your personal trip to me, as you dont have any arguments.

    Why are you turning this personal? Do you want me to turn this personal? Do you want me to start inquiring into your personal business regarding game dev? Should I start to speculate and make my opinions based on thin air about your career?

    Do you want me to start asking you to show what you have been doing from the time that you have started gam dev since it seems to be quite long as you have a 1st badge from C2, so I can asses if it is of any value/quality (from a playability level and especially from a visually aesthetic level since that is my expertise)? Would that be my business? Would that be professional? Of course not.

    How is this adding anyhting but fire to this thread?

    Did I attack you anywhere on a personal level? Do you not know how to hold up conversations and exchange arguments without personal trips?

    If you would know anything, you would know one thing. A person that is meticulous in one area is meticulous in many areas. That is not a vice but a virtue. The difference between good content (not only games) and great content roams in the polishing phase, for which a person must be meticulous - as its the last most important 10 percent. Dont agree? I dont care. This thread is not about that, do not derail it.

    I have plenty to show for in my career (character animation/graphic design/illustration) but that is none of your business, as this thread is not about that.

    How is this comming from a long time registered user? I understand that you might be financially dependant on Construct 2 and thus you are prepared to defend it. This is not about defending C2.

    Why are you still continuing this thread by not adding anything of value to it? Are you just posting just to quarrel?

    I am only waiting for Ashley to *hopefuly* post one final post to adress my latest post to him.

    You have had many chances to post, yet you post just after I have posted that there is no point in continuting this thread as all has been

    already said, and you do so in that style - starting to make it personal? Is this normal forum behaviour?

    Ps. Edits are mainly for typos as I have the dictionary turned off.

  • Quicksand

    If you want to conversate further you are going to have to relate to what I have asked you in the post above.

    But I have nothing more to add. My case is there with all my arguments.

  • You're determined to rhetorically divide the size of your final game into the regular content and the "additional" content from nw.js - in fact you keep using that word "additional" over and over again. But that breakdown seems arbitrary to me.

    All game builds will end up using some space for assets and other space for engine and engine libraries. Both are part of the game, neither is an extraneous addition. Scirra shouldn't really have to specifically point out that the engine will take up space any more than they should have to tell you the other assets (graphics, music, etc.) will.

    Once again I am forced to repeat what I have written previously.

    Scirra should provide me with enough information so that I am sure what I am buying without any surprises to an extent. Once again I will repeat myself:

    No ability to export NW.js in free version, no information anywhere about size after export. This could have been easily handled in a good manner. Is this really asking for too much?

    You are saying that engines have their space ("use some space") for use of their system files/engine files whatever you want to call them. Fine.

    BUT creating a 5mb game (and I am constantly giving this example because this was something I had planned) and adding 60mb worth of engine files to it and calling that combination one game is just ridiculous to me. That is a 1200% increase. Now is that some space?

    If you ask someone for some bread do you expect 1200 loaves of bread in return? How would you put "some" in proportion to ones game content? Because that sure isnt how I would put "some" in proportion.

    Do you still think that this drastic increase should not be specified in this situation? Did you read my previous examples of probable freelance work? Do you not understand what impact this might have yet this cannot be tested anywhere?

    Well if you dont, it is because this did not and does not concern you directly, and as I am person that is totally unknown to you - my problems are not your problems - which is only natural.

    Now as I said before I do not wish to discuss other engines here (and the sizes of their run-files if there are others that need to add so much additional balast and weight, and if there are if they mention this) as my intention is not to drive people off to competition. That is strictly the reason.

    I think this topic has reached its peak point. There is no need for me to keep repeating what I am saying. I do not need to rub this in any more.

    If people are having a hard time understanding this, well so be it. Everyone has their own brain so let everyone decide for themselves how they feel about this, even if it does not affect them directly. I am speaking for myself in this thread as I can only speak for myself.

    If this does not convince owners of Scirra to add a notation or add a very strict and limited NW.js export to the free version (while a notation is totally fine - and so little work to add that somewhere in small font and an asterix), then nothing will.

    What is important that this thread is here, and in the future if someone comes by and looks for answers in this matter, they will find them here and then they will make up their mind without surprises. If I only knew this one bit of information, that would mean a lot for me.

    I still do think that Construct 2 is great to work with, this is the only issue I have found so far, but unfortunately for me it was quite important at the time.

    I only wish this was either mentioned somewhere or handled differently as a source for me to see.

  • — - no, the mention of wrappers is too little to let people know about the additional filesize.

    I can bet you had no idea untill you did some research afterwards, and not before purchasing. Either that or you had been a dev earlier and already had some info regarding game dev.

    As an example you would think that people would know that the chemicals in processed foods are bad for them and they would know what each ingredient on the box where the product ingredients are specified is (the coded numbers). Especially since this is going into your body which should be more important than anything right? Wrong.

    Have you been a market customer longer or a game dev longer? Do you know what are the chemicals in your veggies/fruits/processed foods/breads etc. etc. ? Did you know that the meat you buy in supermarkets is about 60% meat and about 40% water, antibiotics, vitamins and other crapola that increases the weight fo the meat so the price is more expensive? How long have you been a meat eater?

    This is simillar, how should I know where to search to find how much mb extra would my game have?

    Where do you suggest I had looked for to know that my file will be 60mb bigger?

    Lets get one thing straight - visual programming mostly focuses on the newbie market. Do you expect newbies to know such information?

    You have written: "potential game-devs" - Construct 2 as you know gets you results instantly, thus newbie can export straight away and become a dev. And whats the fastest way? Nw.js! But without surprises please..

    Please dont make me repeat myself that I have researched all the info I could forums+main scirra page+(!)free construct 2(!)

    Jase00

    Yes you are right, especially since 99% of folks here are for mobile/html5 dev.

    I just did give a reason in my previous post. The idea to create a game strictly for floppy and distribute it in limited amounts in limited situations for limited public spaces. Is that not a good reason? How can one achieve that having an +60mb increase in volume?

    Another reason?

    Making a game for charity for 3rd world countries where they dont have gazillion/s speed fibre wire internet. Seems legit?

    You have my respect for looking at this objectivly in regards to the NW.js export. At least someone else is not afraid to speak their mind on this forum.

    Even if all that has been said by me in this theard was wrong and utter bull, at least the part of having limited NW.js export would solve all my questions (and the questions of others aswell).

    Lets face it, the bottom line is that now everyone interested will know about the +60mb for win32 and +90mb for win64 to your exported NW.js filesize, by finding this thread. In a way I have accomplished what I have preached.

    This thread was missing once I was about to purchase Construct 2 strictly for NW.js export.

  • Eisenhans - yes that would do. Not 150 but ~60 mb to your runtime.

    Colludium - I appologise if you took it that way, but I wanted to strictly keep on point with these threads.

    newt - I understand Win10 being of an option, but I think you can understand my point better once you read the underlined bottom part of my latest post where I am comming from.

    spongehammer - the problem with people today that they stopped caring for what they believe in. That is one of the resons you see this as trolling. Either that or you are simply too lazy to read all the posts in this thread. Dont want to read? Fine, but then you are not entitled to post your opinion, otherwise it should be immediately rendered as immaterial, as you are posting without understanding.

    I sure wouldnt want to be your customer with your attitude.

    Ashley

    Once again you seem to not answer my questions. Once more I am asking you to reply to my questions as they are regarding your product that I have purchased from you, and information you have provided me. If you dont want to answer these I only ask that you provide a reason why you do not want or intend to answer these questions (the ones that you failed to adress).

    Certainly you can find 10 minutes to read and reply to this as I am one of your customers? Surely your customers are of importance to you?

    I am once more posting them here:

    [quote:3ucp42ty]1) How is it that this information is nowhere to be learned - the fact that NW.js is 60-90 mb larger once exported.

    Again saying that I could use html5 as a substitute does not cut it as these do not work under the same conditions - NW.js being straight out of desktop, and html5 needing to be exported to the web. Can you imagine that for some this is a deal breaker? Also some people - like me for example do not want to publish to web. I only hope you dont start talking about how its better to publish to web, because as you know this thread is not about the reasons for publishing to web or not.

    2) Why is there no way to test out NW.js export even under very strict limitations and still not inform people about the additional mb's?

    Saying stuff about piracy here I dont think will be adequate as Ive read information - here on Scirra forums, that people use 3rd party wrappers to export games from their free version of C2. I dont know how that works or even if its true but that is what Ive read.

    3) Why is there no information about this size increase and that altough this increase in size is there, it will in no way possible affect performance (only download times). That this has to be learned by spending 1 day on the forum - and by asking around.

    4) How can you compare hmtl5 export to NW.js export (especially to a customer that does not want to use html5) when both differ in the process of export and I imagine in the process of distribution.

    5) Is it possible to distribute a html5 exported game from C2 on DVD? ( why do I have the feeling that you will write about NW.js being 60-90 mb bigger will be of no problem on Dvd - but again that was not the question - remember it is you who suggested html5 export if I dont like the +60~90 mb).

    Now moving on to your latest post:

    [quote:3ucp42ty]Because I don't think it matters. I don't think it makes any meaningful difference for downloading, installing or runtime performance. What meaningful difference do you think it makes? If it doesn't make any material difference, I don't see why it deserves to be specifically highlighted.

    So you are saying that something that is happening and giving a game extra weight in mb. you think does not make any meaningful difference for downloading? Are you even reading what you are writing? For a 5mb game it is ~60 mb additional space for win32.

    So instead of having a game that has 5mb I end up with a game that has 65mb. That is a 1200% increase in its size! 1200%!

    I am not asking you about internet speed norms. How can that be that I have a 1200% bigger file in size, and you just brush this off because you think that its not important? Its not your game is it so you might not think it matters. But these are your tools that you have marketed to me, and failed to mention something that is of great importance to me. Do you still not see this?

    Imagine if a bank took 60 dollars for every loan from 1 dollar to infinity. They would not tell their customers because they wouldnt think that, oh well it doesnt matter to the people running the bank. How about taking 600 dollars from each 10 dollars up? Still not convinced?

    How about this:

    I am a customer of Scirra and to this issue matters to me. As I am your customer and I am paying you for everything I expect from what information is provided and the free version I am testing out. Now if this matters to me - your customer - does it still now not matter to you?

    Remember it is not you making my game, it is still me making my game using your software. Now its my turn to make use of it.

    If you still say that this does not matter to you how does this make you look in terms of your priorities as a business?

    You think it doesnt matter to inform potential customers about the downsides of using your software? Not giving them a chance to get to know this in the free version, or to read this anywhere on the site? Is this good marketing ethics you think? Do you still think that this is of no importance?

    Why are you talking about industry standards and comparing GTA? What do I care if people are downloading gazzilions of gb through the internet?

    What If I was to do something else and that was the reason I have purchased your software? What If I wanted only to create a game to distribute only on an old school floppy disk, and that because of the lack of information regarding your product I have been working on a game and have lost all kinds of resources? Time, potential client and potential freelance gig?

    Does that still not matter to you?

    I am talking about something you did not mention anywhere to customers and now are trying to downplay as of no importance.

    To sum this up. This was about file size at first, but it ended up being mostly about principles and good business ethics.

    Now I would like you to refer to this post and show me what you stand for.

    I like Construct 2 for what it is, a solid piece of software, robust easy with a nice event system. And this comes from a total newbie when it comes to programing.

    But I also like working within a transparent enviroment, one that has good principles and business ethics.

  • Colludium

    Firstly I would appreciate if you would spell my handle name correctly. Only this way will I get a notice that you are reffering to me.

    Also I have the feeling after reading your post that you have not read my previous post with full understanding. I would suggest you reread it once again, so I dont keep having to repeat myself. I am in no way trying to be mean here but only stating what I notice.

    [quote:u123dul9]

    1. Go to the Scirra front page, click on "Learn More" then scroll down to Multiplatform Export where you will learn of the nw.js export for desktop. After reading this you would have to search google to learn about it if you were not familiar. You could also read some of Ashley's blogs like this blog about export options.

    1. You have to be joking. I am to go around and search around for additional information regarding software that I have to purchase on additional sites that are in no way directl affiliated with Scirra? How am I to know what sort of information I am looking for? How the heck can I find information regarding extra additional file size when exporting to NW.js? How is a beginner coder that is buying a product based on what he reads, on the opinions on the forums and on what he can access in the free/trail/demo product supposed to find this out?

    [quote:u123dul9]Regarding your other point here, can you please explain what deals would be broken by such file sizes - you have not made this clear..? Just FYI, Elder Scroll Imperial Edition is >110Gb, so what upper limit are you referring to?

    Please re-read my previous post, especially the questions. I have made eveything very clear.

    [quote:u123dul9]2. If you can preview in Chrome then you can see what a nw.js export will run like. I am not sure what your reference about piracy is for exactly - but you should not expect to get everything for nothing when Scirra are running a business.

    2. Again you have missed my point here entirely. Please go back and reread my previous post. I am not expecting everything for nothing - I have paid for the program the exact amount that Scirra asked for. What are you talking about? What do you mean you are not sure what I am referencing in regards to piracy in my previous post? It is there in the post if you are not sure go read it again to be sure.

    Besides I do not have a Chrome browser installed nor will I. My preference at this time is Firefox.

    [quote:u123dul9]3. Google search nw.js github, which should be a natural inquiry (see point 1). There is plenty of information on github. You are confused about file size and performance.

    3. No Ive no idea what github is, and I did not know when I was buying Construct 2. Why should I know or care what it is if I want to use Construct 2? Again you are totally missing the point.

    [quote:u123dul9]4. You clearly do not understand what nw.js is - c2 only exports html5 and that exported product can then be wrapped by nw.js to be played on desktop. All of the c2 games on Steam are wrapped using nw.js in that way, and in spite of your concerns I am not aware of any buyer being worried about download file size.

    4. I do not care if noone in the world is worried about this. It is not of my concern if Im the only one in the whole world or whole universe that is concerned about this. As it is me that is concerned about this, this is important to me.

    Please read my previous post once more. I will not explain it once more, it would be too much writing.

    [quote:u123dul9]5. Yes, but c2 games cannot be played in a DVD player, so I presume you are considering selling DVDs with your game recorded inside. If so, they will still need to run on the operating system of choice - this is a html5 engine, remember, and all exported games need to be wrapped if they are not to run in a browser (see point 1). If you're concerned about your buyers running out of disk space then I think it's highly unlikely that a 100 Mb addition to any game will be of concern to someone with a 1Tb drive.

    5. Um... yes of course that is what I meant, selling DVDs/CDs with my game recorded. Why are you even mentioning this here if this is not the point of the discussion? Why are you assuming that I want a game that is run straight from DVD? Where did I mention that?

    [quote:u123dul9]

    It is worth also considering that you could also publish for Windows 10 directly....

    Why are you even mentioning Windows 10 here? Where did I mention this as an issue?

    Please re-read the prevous post as your points here are all totally missed.

    I have a request to anyone that is to post in this thread, please can you read my posts with understanding and only post in this thread if you have something constructive to say and bring about (for example Jase00 in the post above had some very good insight).

    Do not willingly or unwillingly derail the thread or bloat this thread by asking unrelevant questions.

    This thread is not about chatting for the sake of chatting but to get some relevant information. I would like to get to know a couple of matters as a customer.

    The questions in my previous post are directed Ashley, this is not a matter of people from the forum jumping in to defend Construct 2.

    I would like for Ashley to reply to what I have written.

  • Ashley

    Now this might make me unpopular here on the forums but as you have not addressed what I have written in the posts here I will once again write it out so that this time you can adress these worries of mine.

    What exactly is the problem? Well I have mentioned that in my previous posts here but you did not seem to adress it. So I am reminding you of the parts which were directed strictly at you:

    [quote:5ivvus3v]Why is this information not in a FAQ or anywhere that is visible? Why have potiential C2 licence buyers, like myself before purchasing C2 licence, have not been informed about this?

    I for one would like to produce games strictly for PC, and as you might imagine adding 130 (!) mb to my game from the beginning is such a huge handicap, its mind blowing to me.

    [quote:5ivvus3v]How about having a NW.js export in free version with a big massive Scirra watermark and a 320x240 resolution limit? And a big notice stating: this NW.js export is from the free C2 version, and is not allowed for commercial distribution. And 20 seconds play time the most before the NW.js window closes. Now does that not sound fair?

    The first problem I have is of a marketing nature, and of "buying" a cat in bag sort of scenario, at least when it comes to this part of C2.

    Do you think it is fair to not give a person the chance to try out an export of your only standalone method of publishing for the PC and not inform about add additional handicap which is present at this situation?

    Do you think the answer is just to brush this off and say: eh you can always use html5 to export, as that was not my main reason for purchasing C2?

    I for one will say that you sound quite arrogant saying that there is no problem whatsoever. If there is no problem perfomance wise (which I am reading just now in your post and in some of the previous posts) there is a problem of a more moral standing - how this was not mentioned.

    It is plain to see that this feature of C2 not mentioned anywhere, nor was it available to test out.

    How about adding this to a FAQ, and writing there the things you have told me just now after me trying to figure what was going on.

    • Every exported game for standalone PC wil have an additional 60 to 90 mb increase in size after export to our standalone PC app version.

    You can always zip this (well to be honest do you think I dont know one can zip a file? and guess what, a file that is 60~90 mb less, wieighs even less when it is zipped!) or you can use our html5 export if it doesnt suit you.

    Now as a customer that doesnt want to export html5 ---- as I can only publish this to the web if I want to preview it and not even launch from my computer, as is not the case with NW.js, does not cut if for me.

    Now once again, did you mention this in your previous post? The fact that substituting NW.js for html5 will only allow you to run html5 once it is published on the web and not straight from my computer? How is it ok for you to compare these two if the workflow regarding publishing both is different?

    That there are additional steps that I need to make, get a web page, upload it have it published on the internet - but hey you will just brush it off once more and say - well then do it!

    Subscribe to Construct videos now

    Well no I dont want to do it. I want to get what has been marketed and introduced to me in the free version and in the information on the main page.

    There is also the question me wanting (possibly after a probable kickstarter campain) to distribute my game on a dvd/cd rom. Now how is that possible with html5, since html5 needs to be published on the web? Im not sure here that is why I am asking, it might be possible, in which case I am wrong.

    [quote:5ivvus3v]So it's perfectly possible that a very large file still be highly efficient

    /b]

    This is your quote and I would like to remind you that "possible" is not the same as "for sure" or "100% yes". "Possible" = might be yes, might be no. It might be possible.

    But I suggest we compare apples to apples, comparing a game to an operating system is not that.

    Lets compare games to games, export options to export options. Html5 ---> on the internet, NW.js ----> on your hard drive.

    I have bought your software not because it is html5, but because it is a visual-programming software that is easier for beginners. There is information about stand alone export with NW.js without going into the details of, yes I will mention this once again - adding 60~90 mb to ones game.

    So to summarize what I would like you to adress if I may as your customer:

    1) How is it that this information is nowhere to be learned - the fact that NW.js is 60-90 mb larger once exported.

    Again saying that I could use html5 as a substitute does not cut it as these do not work under the same conditions - NW.js being straight out of desktop, and html5 needing to be exported to the web. Can you imagine that for some this is a deal breaker? Also some people - like me for example do not want to publish to web. I only hope you dont start talking about how its better to publish to web, because as you know this thread is not about the reasons for publishing to web or not.

    2) Why is there no way to test out NW.js export even under very strict limitations and still not inform people about the additional mb's?

    Saying stuff about piracy here I dont think will be adequate as Ive read information - here on Scirra forums, that people use 3rd party wrappers to export games from their free version of C2. I dont know how that works or even if its true but that is what Ive read.

    3) Why is there no information about this size increase and that altough this increase in size is there, it will in no way possible affect performance (only download times). That this has to be learned by spending 1 day on the forum - and by asking around.

    4) How can you compare hmtl5 export to NW.js export (especially to a customer that does not want to use html5) when both differ in the process of export and I imagine in the process of distribution.

    5) Is it possible to distribute a html5 exported game from C2 on DVD? ( why do I have the feeling that you will write about NW.js being 60-90 mb bigger will be of no problem on Dvd - but again that was not the question - remember it is you who suggested html5 export if I dont like the +60~90 mb).

    If anything I posted here is not true I will back down from it - here on the forums. But if what I have written is true - I will stand by it.

    I understand that after this post my stay here at the forums might be unwelcome. If that is the case so be it I will pack my bags and leave.

    I will risk this if it means that I can speak my mind freely regarding issues that I see as problematic for me.

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  • — - good to know, seems all this racket I is blown out of proportion.

    60 mb sounds better than 90 that is for sure and in win32 my game is 107mb.

    Just one last thing if you could answer even roughly within what range does your total game size fall under?

  • Quicksand - the file is there in Win32 too ("nw.dll"), but in win32 it weighs ~68mb. In Win64 it weighs ~90, just noticed that difference now as I am on a Win64 OS... If your game is 130 mb at this stage it means that your game is 130 - ~60 = about 70 mb without the wrapper. Thats for win32 desktop. For win64 it would be 70 + ~90 = 160mb.

    Which brings me to another question — - are you using Win32 or Win64 to export/show the size of the nw.dll on the screen? My bets now are that you are using Win32.