michael's Forum Posts

    We are listening - I think what a lot of people want is not for us to actually listen (which we are doing) but do something different than we've planned.

    Errmmmm, that what threads like this are about - getting Scirra to change their plans - which you will not do, hence you are not listening.

    Which threads have been unfairly locked?

    The last thread Ashley locked.

    No thread needs to be locked unless people are at each others throat. Just because a discussion is going in circles does not justify locking a thread. A thread will run it's course by itself, will eventually die down to a few, and finally die out - there is no need to lock them.

    And now Ashley wants to lock this one?

    Haven't banned anyone for voicing their opinion if they keep it civil.

    lamar?...

    I didn't read anything from him that warranted being banned, yes maybe he was hashing up the same points, but that just goes back to my first point in this reply.

    Unless of course I may have missed a post or thread where he warranted that action being taken.

    • - - - - -

    What is clear from these threads, is the majority of people do not like or want SAAS, in fact they would prefer to pay more to avoid it - it is really that simple. The big players like Adobe can take that rout since they have bucket loads of businesses that will support that model, and in the case of their software, and what it used to cost, has made it a much better deal.

    Whether Construct - which as stated by many, many times, is mostly a hobbyist tool - can survive going down that rout remains to be seen.

    One thing for sure is the sub model your have developed is not expensive, but to many it is not friendly, and has alienated a great number of your current user-base, and I think quite a few are feeling abandoned by Scirra.

    Despite Ashley's comment about people trying to create a frenzy - which is a little crazy imo - that's not what people are trying to achieve. They just don't like the course Scirra have taken, and yes they want Scirra to change their plans. That as said before is why threads like this are started.

    Guys - you just need to move on - Scirra will not listen - Ashley said as much in the last thread he locked.

    C3 is SAAS. To be fair the price is ok, but the lockout model is not - it is obvious C2's twin is not going to be friendly any more.

    Other engine developers are well aware of the discontent Scirra has created and wants to maintain - so there may even be incentives with their products.

    This thread and others like it will be locked, users who continue to voice their opinion against it will eventually be banned - and neither will be listened to anyway - so just get out there in google land - There are options.

    At this rate, I'd advise everyone who is against the Construct 3 model to begin learning a programming language.That's the only way to get a full featured game engine without paying a subscription model or anything for that matter a few would be, Monogame(C#), Cocos2d(c++ or javascript), Phaser(Javascript), Love2d(Lua), SFML(c++ and many other language bindings) or you could make your own game engine by combining a number of different tools to make a custom game engine

    If you are all for the Scirra sub Model, you may want to do that also, because if the general consensus around here is anything to go by C3 is already up the creek without a cash-flo.

    EIDT: big chunk deleted because I Wish the best for Scirra

    One thing is certain about the sub model from threads like this - some like it - a multitude don't.

    There really is only two options - subscribe or move on - but they are options. Remember google is your friend.

    I just get the feeling that a lot of people here are stingy as hell, and probably wipe their behinds with both sides of the toilet paper to save a cent, because they still want c3, but just not with a subscription model, because god forbid, you have to pay Once a year for a product that you really like to use. Pathetic.

    Well we all have our opinions -

    ----

    Nobody here is stupid, they know exactly what C3 as a service means - they just for the most part don't want that.

    I for one would even happily pay for C2 again (even though currently I don't use it at all except with the grandkids now and again) , to help feed Scirra to keep developing that product.

    The software as a service thing is becoming more common - but most people hate it.

    Currently I have a CC sub, and others - so I don't mind paying for stuff at all.

    The worst sub I have is the CC one since if I stop my sub I can't use the software anymore. I even have plugins for Photoshop that cost hundreds of dollars - so there is an incentive to keep my CC sub alive.

    But I use it daily so it is worth the outlay.

    I do photography as a hobby, and have a fairly expensive camera - I don't mind paying out good cash for upgrades and enhancements - but I don't want to keep paying for the camera.

    I just doubt that the Contruct user base is ready to take on such a model - and it seams most hate the Software As A Service model.

    It is really that simple.

    Why not make C3 a one time payment.... with no subscription. Plan to release C4 in exactly one year along with a major new feature, and drop any support for C3 and all further updates for it, only offer downloadable last stable for people who wanna cling to it, once the new C4 version is released.

    Make a plan to release major new version release on a yearly basis. Make it clear that no further updates and support to old versions will be available once the next version is released. Only a downloadable last stable will be available for old C3 once C4 is released.

    . . . . . . .

    Problem solved?

    Yes! That is pretty much what I saying with the Devcomponents model for their IDE tools.

    I hardly use C2 at all atm - but would happily support C3 with this kind of model.

    It is obvious Scirra need to fund the New Team and the Tech behind C3 - and who wouldn't want them to be able to do so.- - if they can eat we can play

    Like Scirra Devcomponents release bug fixes and new tools incredibly often. The upside of their sub model is that if they don't have any new features or bug fixes you need when your sub ends, you can still carry on with your projects with the last build available before your sub run out. But all other support stops. That solves the Lock out issue that most are peeved about, and provides ongoing funds for Scirra.

    So new must-have features, and fast turn around on bug fixes = people want to stay subscribed. But is they can't for financial reasons, or just don't need the latest greatest they still have what they paid for up until their sub ran out.

    [quote:3k146g2z]Isn't that basically what C2 is now?

    No it is not - if you don't keep the C3 sub going you cant use it at all for large projects - so for a substantial game it is effectively useless..

    First - Scirra will not listen to any pleas in a thread like this - they don't care, or have any reason to care, if you like the deal or not, regardless of how long you have been associated with them and any flavour of Construct.

    Second - as already alluded to in this thread by others is the whole sub model Scirra have created is just nasty, because you have no option but to subscribe unless your game is doable in a limited amount of events\layers whatever. Scirra says you are not locked out of your project if you don't subscribe, but we all know that it is as good as being locked out - and we all know they know it.

    Third - You can't compare Construct to Photoshop. PS is professional tool with years of development behind it. In Australia, PS was a $1200 - 1500 program before going to sub model. Now it is affordable for a lot more people including hobbyists.

    But would you pay $1200 - $1500 for Construct - no - it is not in the same league - it is a hobbyist tool not a professional one.

    PS have a monthly payment plan but it is binding for the first twelve months. - this is much better option for people who are on very low income which most hobbyists are.

    The Best SUB

    The best sub model I know and use is that of Devcomponents.

    It is much dearer than the Scirra model but is way, way, way, more user friendly.

    You pay a lump sum up front for twelve months.

      At the end of the period if you don't subscribe you get to keep and use all features in the last build you received You still have access to the knowledge base BUT You don't get any more features You don't get anymore bug fixes You don't have access to the forums

    Renewing the sub is substantially reduced and can be renewed any time - even years down the track with no loss of savings.

    While this model is more expensive - like 2 1\2 times more - it is a lot fairer and has more incentive on both sides of the fence. Because if there are no new features you need then you just don't need to re-sub, but you get to keep what you have payed for.

    That said is matters not what I or anyone else thinks - this is the Scirra model, like it or lump it.

    So those who are for it - happy for you.

    Those who hate it - there are options out there.

    Scirra - hope it goes well for you and the new team.

    Only but a few want to support a sub for C2 in a browser.

    Read the last blog and the real C3 is years away.

    And this thing will always only run on chrome, just try open C3 in any other browser and read the notice you get.

    I do have a few subs - CC being one.

    But I will never pay a sub to be forced to use a browser for dev, and definitely not to be locked to Google. For some reason Scirra thinks it is cool to be tied to 3rd parties that have in the past and will in the future break things....

    Really......

  • Try Construct 3

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    Subscription for something I use for fun occasionally = No

    Subscription for a tool that needs Chrome to run = No (chrome is not allowed to be installed on my machine)

    Subscription for a tool that runs in any browser = No

    Subscription so I can use cloud services = No (I don't want a cloud service/complier whatever)

    I already have C2 Business edition, and C3 has nothing new that compels me to upgrade to it, and even if it did, the above reasons just rule out buying it.

    The only advantage with this browser model is cross platform, but in my book cross platform is not a browser, it is a properly compiled native application.

    Also the subscription model is really only viable for professional use, and we all know that those that did make successful games with C2, have for various reasons moved to develop their product with other technologies.

    C2 and its successor C3 are great for either hobbyist use or prototyping - but not for commercial interests. For this reason alone a subscription model is not a viable option.

    If you are a hobbyist that has a few hours here and there to play - you may as well just use C2.

    If you are a professional who uses the tool for prototyping - you may as well just use C2.

    To me, there is no incentive to subscribe to this model at all.

    So while I appreciate the work Scirra have put into this, I just find the whole C3 deal a real let down, not just the subscription, but the whole direction it has gone in.

    EDIT: This has been designed from the ground up to be a subscription\cloud based product - so the op 'petition' will not likely be considered.

    Oh so after all that I guess it is obvious I won't buy C3 - sorry

  • Just read through some of the many bug reports for C3.

    There were about 6 pages of bug reports the first day but from what I see Scirra has closed about half of them with the same response that is should be fixed in the next release or can't do anything about it or your computer is the problem not C3.

    I thought Scirra said they had internal bug reporting built into C3 so they could get accurate bug reports to fix problems?

    Anyway, the Scirra response to most of these C3 bugs seems to be the same as we got with bugs in C2. That does not bode well for getting problems fixed anytime soon.

    Just my observation.

    Yeah, been looking through the bug thread too, and just reminds me why I left C2 some two years back.

    So just going back to 3D land now.

    Happy game making everyone. Just remember to disable all your useful add-ons, so you make your game - lol.

  • Why not just state clearly that after the beta you can only use the full version upon purchase.

    You could not be accused of anything underhanded by any rational person.

    And how can you find all the bugs if most of the features are not accessible?

    Most people will not be using the beta to help find bugs, but to see if they want to enter a subscription for the tool.

    With respect

    Michael

  • Most of the new features are subscriber-only so you can't try them out in the public beta right now (although you will be able to during the Newgrounds Gamejam). Take a look through the blog posts, there is actually a lot new in C3, it's just not all accessible right now.

    Ashley, with respect,

    I really dislike the whole browser thing and will just stick with C2 for fun with the kids, and stay in the 3D world - so very unlikely I will subscribe, sorry.

    However I do appreciate the work and ingenuity you have put into C3 - but being locked down for a beta just makes no sense to me - at all.

    I really think it would go a long way to sell C3 if you unlock the whole engine, let people see what C3 has to offer, let them play with all the features for the whole beta period, not just for a one week game jam session that only the more experienced users will take part in.

    There is no point telling people about the cool features they can't test, and saying that they will love it in the full version when they subscribe.

    Throw them the bait, so they can really see if they want to swallow it, or just spit it out.

    Just my 2 cents for what little it is worth

    I do however wish yourself and all the Scirra team the best of luck.

    Michael

    He'll be back. Once he start pulling his hair in frustration trying to code stuff or spending way more time doing simple things, he'll miss the Event Sheet way of doing things...

    For something I use almost daily. If someone offered me 2 option. 1st option is a hammer for one time payment, but it takes 30 seconds get one nail in. The other option is a rental nailgun that allows me to get to punch out 10 nails per minute in, I'll definitely choose the nailgun.

    Welcome back if you can swallow your pride, and ever feel that the tool itself is more important than payment model.

    Na, just buy the nailgun - lol

    We don't want server-based anything - Don't host anything - simple.