Subscription will never give anyone the luxury of owning something. And continuously paying to use

software is not ownership.

some other subscription type licenses out there let you keep the software, you just lose access to updating it after the year runs out.

Not construct 3's alas. It might work out just fine for scirra. It seems a lot of people here have no problem with it.

> Why can't you offer a C3 as a downloadable perpetual

>

I suppose you'd also still want to use the on-going services we provide such as the app build service, remote preview, multiplayer etc.? Those cost us money to keep running.

Just to pre-empt the going in circles again, usually the next suggestion is "so make them separate services" - but the entire Construct 3 subscription is already less than a build system alone (PhoneGap Build)!

If those cost you the money - why are you then locking the editing capabilities of the editor?

Why not instead limit access to the features that cost money to keep running instead?

Use local preview- like in construct2 for the standalone version of the editor and let people export to html5 only if their subscription ran out.

Nw.js is free right?

I dont even use multiplayer.

Right now you have absolutely no lure to get me on that initial purchase of the c3 license.

We get nothing to keep out of it - even the projects we make in it will be limited time access to edit. It is basically like paying to download what is considered to be a (very long) trial version of the software - it may be called standalone - but still is probably dependent on contacting your server to check the license in order to run

I guess the reason people post these threads is exactly the request to get more purchase choices - they are not happy with the one that is offered, so they ask for more choices - even suggesting to pay more just to get out of this one

My questions to you are:

- Why don't you move on and stop worrying about something so much you have no interest in? If it's not for you, that's fine - that's your prerogative

- If you're worried about Construct 2 support, what reassurances are you after specifically that would satisfy you?

Ah sorry, I must have remembered it wrong. 25$ is not as bad I guess, but still higher than clickteam's

On the questions:

• I have interest in construct's future, as I still believe that it is a great product. That is why I do worry about what it would hold, as I will surely miss it the way it is - as a standalone app that doesnt expire after a year
• Construct2 is still great, but I have the feeling that Scirra will slowly extinguish it in favor of construct 3 for a number of business reasons. The reassurance that would make me happy is that you keep updating it and adding new features to it for as long as it makes sales. Number of sales should = number of updates.

You cant develop 2 products that compete with each other - so it is probably just a matter of time c2 becomes irrelevant compared to c3.

As stated by Ashley you will put out some bug fixes for it, but all the new features will be going to c3

> Can I just mention that Scirra has never offered an indie humble bundle deal?

>

We were offered inclusion into a Humble Bundle but turned it down for a variety of reasons which we thought quite long and hard about.

- Often in our opinion is a market signal for product end of life

- We'd get a tiny amount of money from each sale (even big sales numbers transpire to fairly mediocre final amounts for a business employing several people)

- It opens up secondary markets which threatens your revenue streams indefinitely (eg resellers)

- Construct 2 sales were and continue to be strong - strong market value

For us, not a good business decision because we're still confident in the value of Construct 2 going forwards. This is evidence based as sales from Construct 2 have shown no signs of slowing down even since the Construct 3 announcement.

> Also scirra has an upfront fee if you want to sell items on the scirra store

>

Again, a business decision for a couple of reasons:

- Having a credit card fee to open a seller account gives traceable accountability when someone breaks the law and tries to sell illegal goods

- It serves as a good barrier of entry preventing lower quality goods

The revenue from the sellers fee is not simply just to get more money.

Ah I see. Thank you for explaining.

This begs more questions.

How dedicated is Scirra in supporting construct2? If the sales continue to be as strong, while construct 3 sales are not as strong - what will you do with it? Will you continue to release updates and continue to offer license sales for it?

How can you entice construct2 users to upgrade to construct 3, when the majority of them don't agree with the rent license model?

If you charged for major construct2 upgrades - I bet people would be willing to purchase those, but people probably wouldnt be willing to abandon a lifetime functional product in order to get a discount on a paid trial of a similar product

Discouraging people from buying construct2 would be bad for business, however having it's better licensing model offering is obviously going to make it dificult to make construct 3 license sales.

Scirra has painted itself in a very tricky corner with this - construct3's biggest competitor is really construct 2!

As to the credit card - you could have lowered the initial fee to use the scirra store 5$, instead of 50$

When I want to start selling items on a brand new store - I am not sure if my product will even make 50$, so if it was more in the impulse buy range price - that would have given me more incentive in trying to make and sell products for c2. It might have stopped me , but obviously many people did make really good products for the scirra store - so your approach was obviously good.

> I would consider Construct.... I do like its simplicity, but yet power.

> But this version 2 uncertainty and now the crazy subscription has me uncommitted.

>

> It just doesn't make good business sense.

>

I also thought this - then I thought a bit more of what my time is worth - Construct allows me to do things quicker than the others.

Lets take Fusion or Gamemaker.

To get all the export ability on all platforms it will cost you $400-$500

In GoDot i'll take a lot more time than what my $400-$500 is worth to me.

What can you do in 4-5 years? What can Scirra do in 4-5 years?

I can Rent it and throw $500 at it. In 5 years hopefully I have launched a game, if not... the tool is not the problem. <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing">

Another thing. I might be wrong but , If you buy C2 now, you get the first year of C3 free. So you will have C2 now, and all updates till they "drop it" but by then C3 will be at equivalent or better level. Nothing to lose really except whatever C2 costs now. At least you can then rest easy that a.) it works for you or b.) tick it off your list and not waste your time wondering what's the best anymore. Win / Win imho. <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz">

I have initially spent about 30$ in total on Fusion + all the exporters and the dev vesion!

You just have to wait for a special holiday discount or an indie humble bundle deal <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink">

Can I just mention that Scirra has never offered an indie humble bundle deal?

Fusion has been on the humble bundle three or more times, game maker has been a few times too.

One of the humble bundle deals - fusion 2.5 dev edition was offered + all exporters - for 15$

http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/201 ... undle.aspx

http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/201 ... undle.aspx

http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/201 ... nched.aspx

http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/201 ... undle.aspx

Actually, fusion 2.5 users will get a discount for fusion 3 too <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile">

Just get on Clickteam's forum and stay tuned. These deals usually come during the holiday seasons and are hard to pass.

Can I also mention that the deals there were all for actually owning the software and the exporters?

Also scirra has an upfront fee if you want to sell items on the scirra store. Click team does not have an upfront fee - I have made about 300$ in profit by selling items on clickteam's store. Since then I have actually bought the stuff again without the discounts/deals - just to support clickteam and thank them for being so generous

I am not saying that I am a cheap indie guy who doesnt like to spend money - just saying that clickteam is far more generous to the indie developers. Even in full price the engine+all the exporters cost less than renting construct 3 for a few years and basically exporting html 5 which you are packaging in a container. Fusion's exporters are actually native.

I have spent a lot of money for many different applications - apart of various game engine licenses and exporters , also applications for creating sprites, cutout animation, packing textures, and various game engines. They were all far better deals than this rent deal

I have spent on full price and no discounts licenses too (no humble bundle stuff) - both game maker 2 and will buy fusion 3 too.

I can afford this and will buy it, but only if I feel that it is just!

Clickteam and yoyo games are clever - they first lure you in with an incredible deal to get you invested, then they offer a time window in which you can upgrade your software with a 20% discount to a higher version. If you can wait for another couple of years - you can get the same upgrade for much less on the humble bundle - because they release it there too anyways.

They are just clever at marketing - time limited upgrade offers, while you are kept invested in the software with the feeling of owning it.

The initial investment may be 15$, but with the offers that racks up to a couple of hundred or more - depending on how bad your patience is. <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green">

80$ here, another 50 - there, 150$ there - timing and targeting offers.

If you could just wait and be patient - you could have had it all for another 15$ - but that 15$ offer was to lure more new users , so they can then release the next version of their game engine and offer those new users 20% discount because they have spent that 1-15$ on that humble bundle offer.

In the end you get to keep what you bought and use it for as long as you want. Some people are still using fusion 2 - that thing has an incredibly long shelf life

Keeping you invested is a very important part of that marketing strategy, that is why the initial fee is low and the upgrade fees are higher - but actually cheaper than construct3's sub fee

In contrast - construct 3 doesnt have to do anything to keep you invested - because you dont have a choice - if you dont buy again next year - you cant edit your games any more.

Ashley I have to agree with Davioware

Also good luck with the rent model

It was worth trying to convince you how you may hit more customers by letting us continue to work on our projects (at least!) on the standalone version, even when the license has ran out.

I can see now that you are dead on set to never let a single construct 3 user actually ever own construct 3

I may come back and buy a license if you ever change your mind.. if I am not using Fusion 3 or something else by then

I would impulse buy it- even for more, if the standalone version has no editing lockout like the online version!

proposal here

Tom Thank you for addressing all my questions. I am still very invested in construct and thus why i keep reading the threads and following any news. I would like to readdress the line of discussion on the standalone version:

With many other subscription based software, when the subscription ends you stop getting updates but you still have the last available version to access and edit your projects. That's why people are complaining about a edit lockout.

We can't do that with the online version of C3, since Scirra want to maintain a single version which is fair enough, hence my proposal to allow edit access with the standalone version.

I quite like the idea to make the standalone version of construct 3 unaffected by the editing lockout imposed on the user once their yearly license period runs out - in the online version. If you allow to keep edit access to the last standalone version that the user downloaded during their subscription- you will eliminate all the technical problems and uncertainy the license lockout is imposing! This will also make people actually feel that they are purchasing something they get to own when they make their initial investment.

[quote:2hx31oe3]As with C2, if someone complains about a bug in an old version, they are told they need to update first, which in this case would mean re-subscribing - which to me is fair enough, as one of the benefits of subscription is updates and bug fixes.

If a breaking change is implemented by Chrome, the old version could be rendered completely useless. So what's the point? I can imagine the uproar from that, bad publicity and a bad taste left in everyone's mouth.

Your reasoning here not to do it is not very justified, and you even negate it yourself in a later post by saying:

Are you saying the stand alone version will use and be reliant on the current Chrome version rather than be a self contained package?

No sorry, I mispoke. It could be in a self contained package.

If the stand alone version has no dependency on chrome web browser, that means that the developer can continue to work on their project even if their version of construct3 is outdated compared to the latest version of chrome - as it is standalone and games can be playtested in it.

Please consider removing the editing lockout after a license runs out on the standalone version. You can replace it with a startup pop up that warns the user that they wont get technical support, that they are running an outdated version and that they might have issues with web browsers for that reason.

Once the license period runs out, the user:

• Can continue working on the project with the last standalone version they downloaded while their license was active
• However the user no longer gets updates or technical support from scirra, unless they subscribe again!
• The online version of the software has the editing capabilities limited - they can not really edit their projects in it anyway- unless they subscribe again!

The user still has the incentive to continue their subscription- to update and get the bug fixes + new features and be able to properly export their game as well.

That way the user will be

• Motivated to buy their first yearly license, in order to get the standalone version and updates to it for a year, without the worry and uncertainty of the lockout being present to stop them from making that initial investment in C3
• Motivated to continue working on their project - and continue to be invested - when using the standalone version of the product which they purchased - even after the license has run out
• As a result of opening the editor more often - see that "Buy another subscription" startup banner remind them more often and not move onto another game engine. With the edit lockout they will stop opening the editor
• keep them happy and on your side, keep them producing tutorials and content for the community - keep them from moving to another engine
• There is still the incentive to buy another subscription in order to continue to be able to edit your games on a tablet device via a web browser

Please consider meeting us halfway with this license at least. Many of us love scirra and construct and are still very much invested in it. But the license as it is atm is stopping us from moving forward with the company and the product.

I am sorry,

I was not initially aware of X3M's account being hacked and lamar 's behavior

Regardless of how long these threads lasted, they were eventually getting locked, as obviously they started to become toxic. But that stuff is all bad publicity too. When you go to the forum of an engine you just discovered, and the thread with most posts and activity is the one about a serious issue with it - that paints your first impression negatively

The spambots have been poluting this forum for ages now and having X3M 's account hacked and product removed makes it look like security here is not handled well - directly affecting a vendor and a product on the store (I bought his product btw).

Tom I understand your frustration with my criticism, but when a forum security issue starts to affect items on your store, then it is normal for me to assume that things like this could happen to a paid online service that you will be providing (c3)

Hopefully that would never happen, but I hope that security measures will be taken to protect paying construct3 users from:

1. accounts being hacked/stolen/disabled

2. projects being stolen/damaged

How integrated is the forum account with the account for using the engine?

Does construct3 prompt for dropbox password prior to getting access to the hosted project?

Can a hacker who gained access to an account retrieve other sensitive data from the victim?

Retrieving a stolen account - account protection - what measures are there?

Will the EULA of construct3 free you from any responsibility if the victim loses work?

I hope that I am raising some valid concerns here

I am not doing it to disfranchise you, just pointing it out

C3 have many things need to discuss beside its price.

I don't know why you guys keep complain about price?

What if they have 2 options :

1 - You guys can buyout c3, 1 times payment, and never get any update(some errors fix, but not new features)

Next year, they release C4 and sale again, and .. C5,C6.....

2- Pay subscription and get update frequently, new feature release every week, month....

Which one do you prefer?

If you guys don't need new feature, you can stay with C2, it good so far.

Thank Construct team.

Some of us constantly argue the same - that the price is not the problem - but the renting nature of the license and the lockouts are. Calling it a subscription is a little bit misleading, because there are many subscription models that subscribe you to updates but dont lock you out of the main editing features of the software.

Ashley goes in circles back to the price- leading away from that topic of the licensing style and back to the topic of scirra needing more money to add features. When we mention the lockout being a problem, he argues with "...but you are not being locked out of your imported game assets (graphics)" .

Duh, we already have these assets on our computers without the drm bs - so what good is that? Locking users out of the game logic after a year passes - the event sheet is the engine. It's everything

Thats the deal breaker

tbh the payment style can be anything if that stuff wasnt there - pay monthly for updates, or pay on a yearly basis - whatever scirra likes. Just remove the enforcing of lockouts

has he been hacked? I don't know what is going on any more

It says that X3M is a banned user. Is this true? Also I don't see Babylon 3d on the store anymore.

Can please Tom or Ashley explain what happened here?