What payment option would you like to see for Construct 3?

Looks like my only alternative is GameMaker.

No, it's not. Other non-subscription options are Godot and Fusion for 2d games.

I opted for Godot, and it's more capable than either GameMaker or Fusion. I've been having a great time with it so far: the scripting is easy, the built-in 'animate all' animation timeline a gods-end, and since it is open source: free.

Godot is used and developed by an actual game studio, and you can tell. It's very efficient and organized to work with. Exporters for all major platforms, including consoles (by request and if you have a developer's license).

So if you dislike rental business models for your software, there are choices.

Never heard of it... I'll check it out.

> Looks like my only alternative is GameMaker.

>

No, it's not. Other non-subscription options are Godot and Fusion for 2d games.

I opted for Godot, and it's more capable than either GameMaker or Fusion. I've been having a great time with it so far: the scripting is easy, the built-in 'animate all' animation timeline a gods-end, and since it is open source: free.

Godot is used and developed by an actual game studio, and you can tell. It's very efficient and organized to work with. Exporters for all major platforms, including consoles (by request and if you have a developer's license).

So if you dislike rental business models for your software, there are choices.

If you want a drag and drop / Event Based system GoDot is not an equivalent or alternative to Construct.

They are building a flowgraph system but it looks even more complicated than the code. If you want this type of thing + 3D then both Unreal and Unity + GameFlow or Unity + Playmaker is much better imho. I've used both and got some gameplay demos out how I wanted it with realistic amounts of effort. a day or two's work with some tutorials etc.

If you want to code GameMaker is really great. You can drag and drop and code. Native export, fast etc although even the new editor is not fantastic. Mac editor on the way. You have to learn the GML language though since the drag and drop is not as good and frankly, being neglected.

Fusion 2.5 and upcoming Fusion 3 is really the only good alternative. Gdevelop is there but lacking at the moment.

Fusion's editor is not as good as Constructs at all and the event system although powerful is not as easy to use.

I'm not at all experienced with Construct (I used GameMaker before), but it's a LOT easier to just figure stuff out vs other engines for me. - I can code a bit (PHP,GML) but wont call myself a coder.

GameMaker and Construct 2 is on par with Manuals I'd say, maybe Gamemaker edges out there since every command etc has an example, but you still need to figure it out.

Construct's forums with all the How Do I links and general tutorials on the site etc are really good.

Don't under estimate this.

GoDot's resources in this area pales in comparison when I last checked.

I've used all these tools and I really think Construct 2 and 3 will save you a TON of time imho. Time = Money right?

Unless you are just learning or making games as a hobby then that counts for a lot.

I'm not liking the sub either but im sure that Scira will add more to it quickly and make it worthwhile. I am hoping.

The ease of use and the "flow" of the editor makes up for the Renting model I think. Esp since they did say they will let people possible pay monthly after the first year.

Who is to say the Gamemaker or Fusion or whomever adds a Sub/Rental model themselves down the line?

If Scirra adds the things people really want as listed in the Feature requests I reckon the renting model could work.

Reasons for the other engines might be because you want native or performance in C3 is lacking. Something that I have not encountered - yet.

I suppose the ease of use does come with some trade-offs, but looking at a game like The Next Penelope for instance, it's running well and is a really fast paced game that looks good.

Maybe I'll eat my words but, although probably not as fast C++ based engines, I think Construct 3 will be capable of more than people give it credit for esp when the re-write of the runtime happens.

I almost see it as the days when people used Flash for making and running games in the .exe or .swf.

I was bigtime into flash, people kept saying it wasn't professional, it's slow, its not this or that, yet, tons of things where done with that tool - games that still exist today started out in Flash but just took some creative thinking.

I'm rambling....

I'm ok with the Rent for now...I use a Mac and it's better to open it in browser than to launch a Parallels session every time in Windows. I REALLY dislike using Windows. I am really HOPING Ashley and Co doesn't disappoint those that are going to sign up for rent and adds some great behaviors and some cool features.

Well... I don't like Godot.

Looks to complicated and it's all scripting.

Even though I know scripting (php, python, pascal, js, vb etc etc)

I don't want to do all scripting for a game... I want building to be visual.

That is why I considered Construct 2.... But can't invest in a stand alone I believe will disappear.

And I am not doing a subscription and get nothing for it at the end.

Tried Unity and Real... nice and powerful. But their licensing and splash screen puts me off.

You can only make games with Unreal (per license)... and Unity is going the expensive subscription too. But you can't make non games without getting enterprise license (CHA-CHING $$$$)

These big game giants are making it harder and harder for newbies to obtain... what are these people thinking??!!

I am looking for something that not only designs games, but can also do interactive content (not games) and output to html5 and standalone exe.

Um, how long do you plan on selling C2 alongside C3? Tom or Ashley

Well... I don't like Godot.

Looks to complicated and it's all scripting.

Even though I know scripting (php, python, pascal, js, vb etc etc)

I don't want to do all scripting for a game... I want building to be visual.

That is why I considered Construct 2.... But can't invest in a stand alone I believe will disappear.

And I am not doing a subscription and get nothing for it at the end.

Tried Unity and Real... nice and powerful. But their licensing and splash screen puts me off.

You can only make games with Unreal (per license)... and Unity is going the expensive subscription too. But you can't make non games without getting enterprise license (CHA-CHING $$$$)

These big game giants are making it harder and harder for newbies to obtain... what are these people thinking??!!

I am looking for something that not only designs games, but can also do interactive content (not games) and output to html5 and standalone exe.

Well imho then you have Construct and Fusion and BuildBox...

Out of the 3, Construct is my choice. I'll re-evaluate when Fusion 3 is out but I've used it a bit and although powerful definitely not as nice to use as Construct but the only REAL competitor.

If I recall correctly....Ashley used to make plugins for MMF back in the day, got fed up and decided to improve it I guess ....the result was Construct

I would consider Construct.... I do like its simplicity, but yet power.

But this version 2 uncertainty and now the crazy subscription has me uncommitted.

It just doesn't make good business sense.

I pretty much agree with Havok. I tried Godot out for a bit- followed some tutorials and I can say that you definitely need to have a bit more advanced knowledge than compared to what you would need when using Construct. There's a definite lack of resources for Godot or at least the way they present those resources are not friendly to people who are clueless about more technical aspects of game development. So I can't recommend it as an alternative because the learning curve and workflow is too drastically different. It does appear to be a really great tool, but not for the type of user base that construct has.

Also in my opinion, C2 is a greater value than C3 at the moment considering I'm only targeting the pc market and I don't see how C3 improves any of that.

If I was a new potential customer for Scirra, I'd also be suspicious of C2 now that C3 is here, so I understand that concern. The question of how much support for C2 there will be now would probably steer me another direction.

To be honest, I will be looking at Fusion whenever that is available because there are various issues I have with the Construct editor/architecture that I am convinced won't be changed or improved.

That said, I'm sticking with C2 for now, because it is the best option I have currently.

I would consider Construct.... I do like its simplicity, but yet power.

But this version 2 uncertainty and now the crazy subscription has me uncommitted.

It just doesn't make good business sense.

I also thought this - then I thought a bit more of what my time is worth - Construct allows me to do things quicker than the others.

Lets take Fusion or Gamemaker.

To get all the export ability on all platforms it will cost you $400-$500

In GoDot i'll take a lot more time than what my $400-$500 is worth to me.

What can you do in 4-5 years? What can Scirra do in 4-5 years?

I can Rent it and throw $500 at it. In 5 years hopefully I have launched a game, if not... the tool is not the problem.

Another thing. I might be wrong but , If you buy C2 now, you get the first year of C3 free. So you will have C2 now, and all updates till they "drop it" but by then C3 will be at equivalent or better level. Nothing to lose really except whatever C2 costs now. At least you can then rest easy that a.) it works for you or b.) tick it off your list and not waste your time wondering what's the best anymore. Win / Win imho.

> I would consider Construct.... I do like its simplicity, but yet power.

> But this version 2 uncertainty and now the crazy subscription has me uncommitted.

>

> It just doesn't make good business sense.

>

I also thought this - then I thought a bit more of what my time is worth - Construct allows me to do things quicker than the others.

Lets take Fusion or Gamemaker.

To get all the export ability on all platforms it will cost you $400-$500

In GoDot i'll take a lot more time than what my $400-$500 is worth to me.

What can you do in 4-5 years? What can Scirra do in 4-5 years?

I can Rent it and throw $500 at it. In 5 years hopefully I have launched a game, if not... the tool is not the problem. <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing">

Another thing. I might be wrong but , If you buy C2 now, you get the first year of C3 free. So you will have C2 now, and all updates till they "drop it" but by then C3 will be at equivalent or better level. Nothing to lose really except whatever C2 costs now. At least you can then rest easy that a.) it works for you or b.) tick it off your list and not waste your time wondering what's the best anymore. Win / Win imho. <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz">

I have initially spent about 30$ in total on Fusion + all the exporters and the dev vesion!

You just have to wait for a special holiday discount or an indie humble bundle deal <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink">

Can I just mention that Scirra has never offered an indie humble bundle deal?

Fusion has been on the humble bundle three or more times, game maker has been a few times too.

One of the humble bundle deals - fusion 2.5 dev edition was offered + all exporters - for 15$

http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/201 ... undle.aspx

http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/201 ... undle.aspx

http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/201 ... nched.aspx

http://www.gamefromscratch.com/post/201 ... undle.aspx

Actually, fusion 2.5 users will get a discount for fusion 3 too <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile">

Just get on Clickteam's forum and stay tuned. These deals usually come during the holiday seasons and are hard to pass.

Can I also mention that the deals there were all for actually owning the software and the exporters?

Also scirra has an upfront fee if you want to sell items on the scirra store. Click team does not have an upfront fee - I have made about 300$ in profit by selling items on clickteam's store. Since then I have actually bought the stuff again without the discounts/deals - just to support clickteam and thank them for being so generous

I am not saying that I am a cheap indie guy who doesnt like to spend money - just saying that clickteam is far more generous to the indie developers. Even in full price the engine+all the exporters cost less than renting construct 3 for a few years and basically exporting html 5 which you are packaging in a container. Fusion's exporters are actually native.

I have spent a lot of money for many different applications - apart of various game engine licenses and exporters , also applications for creating sprites, cutout animation, packing textures, and various game engines. They were all far better deals than this rent deal

I have spent on full price and no discounts licenses too (no humble bundle stuff) - both game maker 2 and will buy fusion 3 too.

I can afford this and will buy it, but only if I feel that it is just!

Clickteam and yoyo games are clever - they first lure you in with an incredible deal to get you invested, then they offer a time window in which you can upgrade your software with a 20% discount to a higher version. If you can wait for another couple of years - you can get the same upgrade for much less on the humble bundle - because they release it there too anyways.

They are just clever at marketing - time limited upgrade offers, while you are kept invested in the software with the feeling of owning it.

The initial investment may be 15$, but with the offers that racks up to a couple of hundred or more - depending on how bad your patience is. <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green">

80$ here, another 50 - there, 150$ there - timing and targeting offers.

If you could just wait and be patient - you could have had it all for another 15$ - but that 15$ offer was to lure more new users , so they can then release the next version of their game engine and offer those new users 20% discount because they have spent that 1-15$ on that humble bundle offer.

In the end you get to keep what you bought and use it for as long as you want. Some people are still using fusion 2 - that thing has an incredibly long shelf life

Keeping you invested is a very important part of that marketing strategy, that is why the initial fee is low and the upgrade fees are higher - but actually cheaper than construct3's sub fee

In contrast - construct 3 doesnt have to do anything to keep you invested - because you dont have a choice - if you dont buy again next year - you cant edit your games any more.

Lets take Fusion or Gamemaker.

To get all the export ability on all platforms it will cost you $400-$500

But you do have exporters.

And after the five years in your example, you own everything.

In GoDot i'll take a lot more time than what my $400-$500 is worth to me.

I does take a bit to get used to a new product, but only a few months. After a while you will get the hang of it. And again you have the exporters many have been asking for around here for years.

What can you do in 4-5 years? What can Scirra do in 4-5 years?

I can Rent it and throw $500 at it.

But what export options will you have. And you still own nothing. . . . . .

A few points to consider :

1) Subs are hated by the majority (and I am not just talking about the Construct community)

2) Scirra is taking a new and yes risky direction, and regardless of what anybody thinks, they want to try it - it may pay off, it may not.

3) Scirra customer base will obviously change - many of the old customers will not buy it, some of the old customers will buy it, and the future may well rest on new customers supporting it.

4) If you like the deal go for it - after all it is an excellent HTML5 tool.

5) If you don't like the deal it is time to broaden your skill set and learn a new tool. Scripting is not that hard - it is just different. The trade-off is export options and ownership of the product you invest in.

Well... I don't like Godot.

Looks to complicated and it's all scripting.

Even though I know scripting (php, python, pascal, js, vb etc etc)

I don't want to do all scripting for a game... I want building to be visual.

That is why I considered Construct 2.... But can't invest in a stand alone I believe will disappear.

And I am not doing a subscription and get nothing for it at the end.

Tried Unity and Real... nice and powerful. But their licensing and splash screen puts me off.

You can only make games with Unreal (per license)... and Unity is going the expensive subscription too. But you can't make non games without getting enterprise license (CHA-CHING $$$$)

These big game giants are making it harder and harder for newbies to obtain... what are these people thinking??!!

I am looking for something that not only designs games, but can also do interactive content (not games) and output to html5 and standalone exe.

Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too

Nothing in life comes for free. Version 3 of Godot will have built-in nodal-based visual coding, but I think even then it is probably too much work for you.

Most Game Maker developers code with scripting as well - it is more flexible - as Havok explained too. You will not get very far without scripting in Game Maker.

If you want a drag and drop / Event Based system GoDot is not an equivalent or alternative to Construct.

They are building a flowgraph system but it looks even more complicated than the code. If you want this type of thing + 3D then both Unreal and Unity + GameFlow or Unity + Playmaker is much better imho. I've used both and got some gameplay demos out how I wanted it with realistic amounts of effort. a day or two's work with some tutorials etc.

I thought so at first too when I opened Godot the first time; until I created a first small game in it (tutorial). It may look complex, but really is not: just a different approach. For example, you want the camera to follow the player? Just parent the camera to the player. Change some camera settings, BAM! working scrolling.

The animation timeline is a huge time-saver: no need to programmatically control a lot of stuff. And the beauty of Godot's timelines: they are stackable! Anything can be animated. IK boned characters are built-in, with control over animation blending. And the 3d features obviously offer a much greater scope in possibilities.

But yes, the initial investment is much deeper - not unlike Unity (which I also tested, and I even purchased Playmaker for testing). I did not like Unity for 2d game development. I like having 3d options (like Godot), but I prefer to work in a dedicated 2d dev environment (just like Godot, Fusion, Construct).

I also think that the more complex a game becomes, the harder it will become to control in Construct. I read a number of accounts from experienced C2 developers here about how larger projects become much more difficult to maintain. Godot is more geared towards larger game development. You can tell because variables can be exposed to an object's GUI in the editor, and it is even possible to run functions while editing ("tools mode"), and of course the excellent scene-based workflow (which I think is even better than Unity).

I chose Godot because I do not like renting software, and I need good native exporters. And after trying out the visual editors in Construct and Fusion, I prefer simple scripting.

Of course, there will always be trade-offs. The initial start-up in development will take more time in Godot than Contruct, I think - but I am confident that Godot is the better choice for (semi)larger projects, and for my project.

But this is good, isn't it? At least there are so many alternatives, so everyone can make up their own minds. For me, after working for a couple of years in Visionaire Studio, I really like working with Godot. But for others who do not want to learn scripting, Construct, Fusion, of Buildbox (just checked that one out) will be a better choice. But in that case you will have to invest money. As I said, nothing comes for free.

Can I just mention that Scirra has never offered an indie humble bundle deal?

We were offered inclusion into a Humble Bundle but turned it down for a variety of reasons which we thought quite long and hard about.

• Often in our opinion is a market signal for product end of life
• We'd get a tiny amount of money from each sale (even big sales numbers transpire to fairly mediocre final amounts for a business employing several people)
• It opens up secondary markets which threatens your revenue streams indefinitely (eg resellers)
• Construct 2 sales were and continue to be strong - strong market value

For us, not a good business decision because we're still confident in the value of Construct 2 going forwards. This is evidence based as sales from Construct 2 have shown no signs of slowing down even since the Construct 3 announcement.

Also scirra has an upfront fee if you want to sell items on the scirra store

Again, a business decision for a couple of reasons:

• Having a credit card fee to open a seller account gives traceable accountability when someone breaks the law and tries to sell illegal goods
• It serves as a good barrier of entry preventing lower quality goods

The revenue from the sellers fee is not simply just to get more money.

> Can I just mention that Scirra has never offered an indie humble bundle deal?

>

We were offered inclusion into a Humble Bundle but turned it down for a variety of reasons which we thought quite long and hard about.

- Often in our opinion is a market signal for product end of life

- We'd get a tiny amount of money from each sale (even big sales numbers transpire to fairly mediocre final amounts for a business employing several people)

- It opens up secondary markets which threatens your revenue streams indefinitely (eg resellers)

- Construct 2 sales were and continue to be strong - strong market value

For us, not a good business decision because we're still confident in the value of Construct 2 going forwards. This is evidence based as sales from Construct 2 have shown no signs of slowing down even since the Construct 3 announcement.

> Also scirra has an upfront fee if you want to sell items on the scirra store

>

Again, a business decision for a couple of reasons:

- Having a credit card fee to open a seller account gives traceable accountability when someone breaks the law and tries to sell illegal goods

- It serves as a good barrier of entry preventing lower quality goods

The revenue from the sellers fee is not simply just to get more money.

Ah I see. Thank you for explaining.

This begs more questions.

How dedicated is Scirra in supporting construct2? If the sales continue to be as strong, while construct 3 sales are not as strong - what will you do with it? Will you continue to release updates and continue to offer license sales for it?

How can you entice construct2 users to upgrade to construct 3, when the majority of them don't agree with the rent license model?

If you charged for major construct2 upgrades - I bet people would be willing to purchase those, but people probably wouldnt be willing to abandon a lifetime functional product in order to get a discount on a paid trial of a similar product

Discouraging people from buying construct2 would be bad for business, however having it's better licensing model offering is obviously going to make it dificult to make construct 3 license sales.

Scirra has painted itself in a very tricky corner with this - construct3's biggest competitor is really construct 2!

As to the credit card - you could have lowered the initial fee to use the scirra store 5$, instead of 50$

When I want to start selling items on a brand new store - I am not sure if my product will even make 50$, so if it was more in the impulse buy range price - that would have given me more incentive in trying to make and sell products for c2. It might have stopped me , but obviously many people did make really good products for the scirra store - so your approach was obviously good.

How dedicated is Scirra in supporting construct2?

As we've said, we're going to continue updates into the future as we have been for the last year or so.

How can you entice construct2 users to upgrade to construct 3, when the majority of them don't agree with the rent license model?

1) We've got the upgrade deal - 50% off your first year

2) Signals from these forum threads might indicate to you that the majority don't agree with it. We have ~50,000 monthly active users of Construct 2 (mix of free and paid). Forums are a small representation.

Discouraging people from buying construct2 would be bad for business, however having it's better licensing model offering is obviously going to make it dificult to make construct 3 license sales.

Yes, it's a difficult transition we're being careful about.

Scirra has painted itself in a very tricky corner with this

I don't think so at all. All our decisions have been thought out carefully over a period of many months. New product launches for small businesses are always risky and difficult. Yes it's risky, but no we don't think we're painted in a corner at all.

It's very easy to criticise from a distance, but when you're in the trenches on a daily basis there's an abundance of information and decision making going on that you're not aware of.

As to the credit card - you could have lowered the initial fee to use the scirra store 5$, instead of 50$

I mean yeah, we could also charge $1. Also it's not $50, it's $25.

When I want to start selling items on a brand new store - I am not sure if my product will even make 50$

It's $25. And if you don't have the confidence you will make $25 in sales then don't pay it. It's entirely your choice.

so if it was more in the impulse buy range price - that would have given me more incentive in trying to make and sell products for c2

We're not interested in impulse buys for store fees. We're interested in people who want to stick around and sell for the long term.

You seem completely set on not using Construct 3 which is fine, it's your prerogative. My questions to you are:

• Why don't you move on and stop worrying about something so much you have no interest in? If it's not for you, that's fine - that's your prerogative
• If you're worried about Construct 2 support, what reassurances are you after specifically that would satisfy you?
• I believe you've mentioned that you don't think we're listening or engaging with the community well enough - what else do you think we could be doing better with regards to communications?