Tokinsom - I haven't tried using c2 in a team environment, so I can't comment on that, but actually I agree with you about some of the problems you mentioned.

Keeping the wavs in the project seems to have no purpose and just wastes space, as they don't seem to be used for anything after conversion to ogg and aac (unless I'm missing something they're used for).

The level editor process is a somewhat cumsy in comparison to how smooth it was in CC. In CC, I could make the level editor save and then the level can then be immediately loaded. In c2, Saving the level results in it getting downloaded to my downloads folder, I need to reimport it into c2, make a new event for loading it because ajax can only select project files from a drop down menu and not a string, and then repreview to be able to access it.

I also agree that C2 should automatically add everything that's in the project's files folder when the project is loaded and previewed instead of needing to import them in c2's editor (or even maybe have a 'refresh' option for the right click menu of the filers folder as well). I think it's an unnecessary step, and it's obviously affecting you and your team.

Files should be able to be loaded with ajax via a string rather than a drop down menu. As it is every time a level is created another event needs to be made for it. This way we wouldn't need 100 events for load level1.json, level2.json, etc. We could just do load "level"&variable&".json" instead.

Some way to do file organization, a 'for each project file' condition and 'current file name' expression would also be nice. With file I/O like CC has we can know everything in the images folder on disk is an image, and in CC I can loop through with 'for each file' (in c2 there isn't any way I'm aware of to organize/loop through files like that) and load all the images into a palette that can be used to build levels from, without having to adjust the loading code every time a new image is added. Even just a way to loop through the project files in c2 and get the name of the current file to be able to compare the file name to determine the file type and what to do with it would enable us to do something similar.

AFAIK the difference between sleeping/velocity at 0 is like the difference between setting an object's opacity to 0 and setting it to invisible. If it's visible with the opacity at 0, the graphics card still does all the work of rendering it. If it's invisible, it skips rendering it completely - though the object still has some overhead so enough sleeping objects will still affect the framerate eventually. I think it's similar to that for the inclusion of which objects are calculated by the physics engine.

(I'm not entirely sure about that, but that's how I think it works.)

What object are you referring to that doesn't have an opacity expression/condition?

What objects really need is the 'pick by comparison' condition that CC has. Then you can just plop in any expression an object has and compare it.

Unrelated, but it would also be nice to have an expression for an object's scale.

Kyatric, I think we actually agree, except you and Arima have a more concrete understanding of C2's full capabilities. It seems like AirScape might represent the best of the last "generation" of C2, and like I said, AirScape is fun and commercial.

But based on that, and the number of failed or perpetually delayed or truly bad RPGs we've seen, C2 of the past hasn't been the right tool for that genre. You point out, which one of my own observations, that C2 has drawn mainly small-project short-timeframe devs.

It's true that having large projects that at a glance prove C2's capabilities to people, rather than having people need to use the program and see the potential, will bring in more 'power users/teams' but I don't think it's much of a problem. Showcase games will come with time.

I agree with Kyatric that C2 hasn't really been 'ready' for a large game for that long - certainly for less time than it would take to make a large game - which is a very major part of the reason why what C2 has had made with it are smaller games.

I wouldn't worry about either the subjective quality of some of the games that have been attempted or the failed attempts at such. Game making is hard, much harder than it seems to be from the outside, surprising new developers often even when using tools to make it easier like C2. On top of that, RPGs are crazy complicated to make. Even a simple one like mine still has an utter ton of systems that have to all work smoothly together, which requires proper code design, which most people starting game dev don't have knowledge of how to do.

I also hope you're not judging the quality of C2 based on how long it's taking me to make loot pursuit - I don't want to get into some of the details, but some of the reasons it isn't done are it's sort of my first game (made a small unreleased unfinished shmup before it), and as mentioned a complex one at that and I had no idea what I was doing when I started, and tackling an rpg was something I wasn't as ready for as I thought, resulting in a mess I eventually couldn't deal with anymore (remember what I was saying in the previous paragraph? ^^;) on top of CC's bugs, prompting me to restart it from scratch in C2 a few months ago, and throughout it's development I haven't been able to work on it nearly as much as I'd like, which is the biggest reason it's not done.

We need to find/cultivate devs like Jonathan who will make high quality long-term projects . If I were Scirra, I'd consider encouraging or in some way sponsoring a team capable of delivering a commercial game perhaps ultimately funded via Kickstarter.   You'd want at least one programmer like Yann or Rojo, one of the crazy talented artists I've seen here, and a writer/designer. Putting out one remarkable indie game would do the whole community/brand a truly transformative amount of good.

Even then, it would still take quite a while for that dev to finish the game. C2 might have a standout game on it's own by then. I know there's at least one person trying to make one. :)

I'm vouching for Loot pursuit to be the "Big hitter" as it's been in development for a few years, on Classic, so basically, has a head start...

Thanks! I'm hoping it manages to impress. Though, as mentioned, I restarted it recently in C2, so it's a ways off (a vague guess is it's about 2/5 done).

I was thinking down the lines of, can C2 be used for truly high-quality, large-scale projects? Right now, C2 has no flagship game which really highlights its full capabilities, so as someone who's still quite a newbie when it comes to development, I probably have a decent idea what might theoretically be done with C2, but on the other hand, without that shining example I might be underestimating it.

I feel that you are, as you state, underestimating it. It seems you're basing your opinion of what C2 can do upon what has already been done with it. Having been using CC/C2 for five years for many experiments as well as my own games, I feel strongly that C2 can be used for virtually any 2D game you can imagine short of hardware limitations and requiring stuff like sprite distortion, which Ashley has said will probably get implemented at some point. Seriously, almost every 2D game that has ever been made could be made in C2. If C2 had sprite distortion even vanillaware level stuff would be possible.

No one's yet made an RPG with C2 that anyone would consider buying

Well, no one's completed one yet, but that's because they're quite complex and take a long time to make. There are some that are in the works. :)

T:ToN and PE both use pre-rendered backgrounds with true 3-D characters and creatures, which C2 might be able to duplicate some of, but I'd just have to see a playable demo (or have Ashley or Tom promise it's so) to believe it's possible or practical to make a game on par with even Planescape: Torment, Fallout 1&2, or Neverwinter Nights. C2 doesn't have to be the perfect tool for all games, just the best one for some.

I'm still not sure why you keep mentioning 3d games like NWN. C2 is 2D. I'm hoping for 3D at some point, but comparing what C2 can do to 3D games is an inaccurate comparison. And there's no reason why C2 can't be the best tool for all types of 2D games. That's one of the best things about it, it's not limited in the types of games it can make (again, aside from 3D).

I did the same thing before realizing that using layer names instead of using layer numbers solves the problem and as such is a better method.

Well, for a "modern" RPG, I think most people are expecting either a 3D or a 2.5 engine to bring it to life, and would also appreciate higher quality graphics.

I don't think you could do a Torment: Tides of Numenera or Project Eternity in C2. Both of them, who could have used any engine available, chose Unity for their quasi-indie-yet-AAA RPGs.

Bah! How dare you insinuate 2d cannot be modern and is inferior to 3d! Rar! And stuff. /mock rage

Seriously though, of course you're not gonna get people trying to make 3d games with c2, and as for project eternity if you had the coders with the shader coding chops everything in that video might be able to be done with c2 as well (though it might require some modification to c2's rendering engine, I don't know). The reason I think that is there was actually some preliminary work done on a shader for cc quite a while back that did some of what's in that video: http://www.scirra.com/forum/wow-2d-graphics-with-3d-lighting-depth-info-etc_topic39079.html based upon the amazingness of this video:

Also, there are lots of 2d RPGs out there, though it's true they're mainly in the indie scene, and those projects you linked aren't exactly indie studios. There's different levels of expectations for indies.

goldentreee - It is in fact supposed to support layout by layout loading! :)

It's going to depend on the type of large game. I think it would be better to implement an RPG in Unity or a graphic adventure in Wintermute, or a text game in Inform, but for platformers, shooters, and puzzle games of virtually any size, I'd go for C2 first.

I'm not sure why you would recommend using unity for an rpg instead of c2? I can tell you from experience c2 is entirely capable of making them. I've also read quite a few people talking about how unity can be a bit hard to work with for 2d.

Because C2 is almost exactly the game design tool I've been wanting someone to create for ages. I've tried tons of others, and I know it's partially a subjective thing, but c2 has a great workflow, it's easy to understand the event system (which is very helpful when trying to wrap my head against complex chunks of code), and no other tool I've found comes close having to the ease of use, power and flexibility that c2 does. You can make basically any 2d game with c2.

On top of that, c2 does an utter ton of stuff for you that otherwise you'd have to code on your own. I've heard it again and again when people ask what tool to use to make their game: "do you want to make games, or engines?" People who use raw code often end up working for ages on the underlying engine and tools before they can even get to starting work on the game itself. Many people don't get past the first step at all because they realize that the engine they've written is clumsy and they go back to fix it, or by the time they're done the industry has advanced and what they're doing is obsolete - getting stuck working on the engine and not the game.

C2 offers ease of use, power, flexibility and is actively developed so bugs are fixed often. Large game, small game - the only difference I've found is how long it's going to take to preview once all of the assets are in the game, which is probably the same no matter what tool you use (a professional game developer I know laughed when I complained about 5 min preview times with loot pursuit in construct classic (c2 is much faster at previewing, btw). I can't remember how many hours he said it took, but it was many. Of course, he was compiling way, way more data than I was).

I'm currently working on a medium scale game, and also have begun a large scale game in c2, so yeah. :)

The most important thing to do in my opinion on a large project in c2 is learn to organize code well so what you're looking for is easy to find, and easy to read when you find it, because otherwise a tangled uncommented mess of events can be quite difficult to work with when there are enough of them.

Also make sure to run tests early to make sure your target platform can handle what your completed game will be doing (ram, CPU use, rendering, etc).