Everade's Forum Posts

  • >

    > (...)

    > Please finally consider the fact that multiplayer is a must have for every game creator.

    > (...)

    >

    No

    With "creator" i mean game creating software such as construct and not a dev.

    So yes it is.

    There are people who want to create more than just iphone single-player games using construct 2/3.

    And even those can become much more enjoyable by adding an online multiplayer layer on top.

  • Yea you can not avoid that.

    It's impossible to avoid that, that's why it's important to implement the time-rewind system.

    Here's a rought explanation of the issue you're experiencing:

    https://youtu.be/xyCQtUFOJmA?t=210

    There's also a video where the actual developers from infinity award talk about lag compensation and how they "fixed" it to feel snappy.

    It's pretty interesting because they had an issue exactly connected to what oosyrag said:

    Minute 13 he's talking about the time-rewind

    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023220/Fi ... on-Call-of

    It's your ultimate goal that the HOST, calculates at which exact spot the KILLER and the KILLED were standing at the time of the shot happening.

    So the host should basically calculate the positions back in time, trying to re-create the positions to check if the shot actualy hit something.

    And to make the game feel fluent for the players, you create the movement prediction.

    So the player actually moves visualy before he's actualy really moving (on the host).

    Same goes for shooting and so on.

    Ashley

    Although i have to admit that the official multiplayer plugin from scirra comes with precision issues when it comes to movement.

    Of course, it has to do some corrections in case your position is not in sync.

    But it happens all the time!

    So you're always being moved a little back and forth as a client, because it's always resyncing your actual position with the one given from the host (talking about 8-way direction movement here).

    Basically it's a very annoying micro-rubber banding.

    And this already happens while testing locally (host and client on the same machine)!

  • True, sorry — I only meant Towerfall as an example of a 2D game possible in Construct, and then multiplayer added to that.

    I've just not found any examples of the multiplayer, platform, and bullet behaviour working together properly, and have had no luck (despite my efforts) creating one.

    If it's possible, I'd love to see an example. In fact, I wonder if Scirra-grade examples of the many uses of multiplayer would spur interest in the plugin again (a multiplayer R-Type; a multiplayer Mario; a board game; a chat app; etc).

    (EDIT: or if it's not possible, I think it'd be a good idea to put that in the manual, to prevent others from the same fate)

    I think Construct 3 fixed the precision issue already (I'm not 100% sure)

    https://www.scirra.com/blog/203/some-bo ... onstruct-3

    Read the Enhanced acceleration precision part

    And which issue exactly are you talking about ?

    Do you mean that bullets fly through players and did not hit them?

    Construct 3 also enhanced the bullet behaviour to fix exactly that.

    I personally created my own bullet system which works very well within multiplayer environments.

    Instead of moving a small particle, i'm shooting a line which stretches over time.

    My goal was to create realistic bullet speeds, so the lines stretch extremly fast!

    I've even extended the system with penetration, depending on the bullet type being fired.

    So you can easily adjust it for each bullet that it penetrates multiple enemies before it gets destroyed.

    But i guess this should now be possible with Construct 3 new bullet behaviour which according to the blog does not fly through objects anymore because it moved faster than the frames have been updated.

    Please note that you will require lag compensation (rewinding time) if you try to create a real-time shooter or something similiar.

    https://www.scirra.com/tutorials/892/mu ... pts/page-8

    Ashley covered that already in his tutorial.

    And there's a pretty good real-time multiplayer template in the store:

    https://www.scirra.com/store/royalty-fr ... plate-2846

    It's not perfect and some things are a little bit complicated.

    It also has some precision issues when jumping. Which should be fixed in Construct 3 (read above)

    But it's great if you really want to get into it.

    But you can achieve exactly that by reading through ashley's multiplayer tutorials.

  • Ashley

    Thanks for the reply.

    No i don't want it to be removed, but waiting for an update which is never going to happen is really not fun.

    Let me quote you from just a few weeks ago:

    There's a number of other aspects like the Scirra Arcade, multiplayer signalling, the hosting of C3 itself, other services we haven't announced yet, and other services we'd like to add in future.

    So i expected to see multiplayer improvements in Construct 3.

    But now since the beta release there's nothing about that "promise".

    And with your post above saying that there are no plans to improve it any further is just a huge let down yet again.

    And yes, multiplayer isn't easy.

    Your tutorial is also pretty good.

    It helped me to get multiplayer properly working with the prediction and anything else that's important about online multiplayer environments.

    Although there's still a lot more that could be covered. But i can work with it even though i'm an absolute Construct 2 beginner.

    I'm just saying that since that release back then, multiplayer has just been left back in the void.

    If at least you could improve the solid behaviour (which could also be useful for non-multiplayer scenarios) that would already be a huge relief.

    Yet the biggest request (which i understand is a lot of work) would be support for dedicated server hosting.

    I'm not really expecting that to ever happen, even though it would be freaking amazing.

    But i would already be more than just happy with the solid behaviour update.

    Curious, it works fine and has full functionality as dedicated host, regards if you're running it in nw.js or a browser tab, so wondering what the problem is there. Is not like clients ever see what the host sees, depending on how you approach it.

    Also, what is the benefit of running for own signalling server? Honest question, I really don't see it.

    The main question I guess would be what exactly you want to see improved and how?

    The solids issue you mention is hardly unique to multiplayer projects, and there are logical workarounds. Also it will likely be addressed in a C3 runtime update, which is planned for the future.

    Full dedicated host functionality?

    Do you mean if i let the game itself run on a windows server or what?

    That's a really non-performant ugly workaround. I think Ashley even said that himself from what i can remember in a private message.

    Benefit of running an own signalling server is:

    I have full control over availability and geographical location (about 1 year ago the scirra signalling server was down for several days and i've offered my signalling server to others (and yes it has been used by several people))

    And the solid issue i've mentioned has no logical workaround.

    I've been testing tons of different things but everything was an ugly workaround which ended up with specific bugs which are impossible to be fixed.

    Maybe someone could write a plugin for that, no idea since i'm not a coder (that's why i'm here using Construct in the first place).

    And "likely" be adressed is a huge word.

    Ashley

    I would love to hear some feedback from Ashley on this particular case.

  • Still searching for a solution, my further tests all ended up bad.

    Would be awesome to have some experienced constructers working on this since Scirra doesn't work on Multiplayer.

    (Solution for multiple floors within an online multiplayer scenario where individual players are able to not bump into solid objects while the others don't due the fact that they are moving on a different floor

    Main issue being: Solid objects are only globaly set and can not be set individualy for each object.

  • Ashley

    The reason not a lot people are using it is because it's not mature enough.

    On top of that, we're still lacking the possibility to run a true dedicated host unless with extremly ugly workarounds which should not even be mentioned.

    The majority of successful games, especially in the long run ARE multiplayer games.

    Each time someone's asking for multiplayer improvements you're immediately shutting the feedbach, suggestion, requests down.

    Please finally consider the fact that multiplayer is a must have for every game creator.

    I understand that you can see the activity of people connecting to your signaling server and it might not be too much.

    But i'm 100% sure that a lot more people would give it a try if it's actualy being improved and actualy pushed somehow by scirra.

    You've released multiplayer, wrote 1~2 guides and then didn't even bother to touch it ever again. It was never properly advertised either.

    So what do you expect?

    I'm still working on multiplayer games only using construct (i'm hosting my own signaling server)

    But the fact that you don't give a **** about your hard worked feature is actually holding me back to develope any much further since i'm fearing that i will never make it using construct. I'm sorry but that's really the truth and i'm kinda sick and tired reading your let-down posts on every multiplayer topic.

    Please officialy admit that you drop multiplayer feature for good so i can move along.

    There's a reason why this topic comes up over and over and over again.

    Please...

    The other major issue is that solids can only be set globally rather than -per object.

    Has this finally been adressed for C3 ?

    That's absoluetly not working for multiplayer game scenarios.

    But i guess you also didn't care about that since it's "only" multiplayer related.

    More details:

  • Multiplayer

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    Ashley

    Tom

    Personally, i would go with a similiar subscription plan like InvisionPowerBoard is using it.

    It works similiar to this:

    1. You buy the product at a fixed price, which means you own it

    Which includes updates for, lets say 3~6 months.

    Then you will have to pay the monthly subscription (or 3 months or whatever you choose) to get updates

    2. Pay the subscription to download/install/use updates

    This includes fixes

    This includes new features

    This way, we could ultimatively decide if we want to get the latest updates or not.

    And it increases Scirras income, stable and predictable.

    Some people might not pay the subscription in the first place, but once some important fixes or great features have been added, i'm sure they will jump back in and pay for another month.

    This could be pretty well balanced and would probably something both sides could live with.

    Or of course, the unrealistic version which will probably not happen:

    Get your money from somewhere else as everyone says xD

    > you should have given us the bad news up front like you did, AND give some features that people can get excited about. Even one major feature.

    >

    We did! It runs in the browser. That's a huge feature. Maybe some people are sceptical, but it works beautifully. You can't get the feel of it from screenshots, you'll just have to wait for the public beta.

    It's a huge feature as in being capable of running on different operating systems which expands as in possible sales for you guys.

    That's nice to hear, really, but is it interesting for the customer as in being useful or more powerful?

    Not really...

    Most people are working on their games at home or in their studio.

    So we use a computer which is made for developing games which is most likely a Windows OS.

    The cloud is a nice addition, but until now we were able to use our own cloud also...

    I understand that it must have been extremely hard to realize this, so it's probably a pretty exciting technological achievement.

    But from the user standpoint, it feels.... extremely pointless?!?!?! Or maybe that's just me?

    I also don't think that anyone was asking for this.

    The only thing i hope is that it somehow helps with your workflow pipeline to speedup updates.

    Other than that... i don't like it at all.

    Because it does not really help to improve our games in any way.

    If C3 is only about running on the browser and some other user interface cleanups, then i think you're going to have a big problem with your community.

    Because i can't see any big exciting changes on the interface either.

    So lets hope you guys got some features up your sleeve, maybe stuff we've been waiting for.

    Or something else which gets us really excited. *Fingers crossed*

    It's necessary somehow.

    If you can't see why, then you aint got any idea how selling a product works.

    How else are they going to maintain or increase the size of the team?

    Tell me?

    I'm really interested into your strategy to pay Scirras wages.

    Please enlight me, because i can't see any common sense in your statements.

    Solely selling C3 at a fixed price won't make it.

    I'm sure Construct 2 reached a point where they made almost no sales anymore.

    Yet they've continued to work on free updates for you, all the time.

    The only way Scirra maintained some additional income was with the introduction of the store with user created content.

    Going with another normal sale of C3 would be a dead end at some point.

    Unless they are able to bring out C4 within just a few years, and going on with C5 ....

    So they would have to release a new construct when the sales are going down.

    Which holds back updates to the Construct version you're currently using (just like now when we were wating for C3)

    Is that what you want?

    We don't know all the details of the new subscription model just yet.

    Maybe they give us the option to still use Construct 3, we just won't get any further updates.

    Who the heck knows, we have to wait for their final release of all the details.

    Maybe they can also lower the subscription costs at some point, we will see.

    Clickteam has more than just one product to sell.

    Which generates of course, more income...

    And Clickteam does not have much more people employed than Scirra.

    In my perspective, it's not Scirra who's greedy, but the customers who are asking for everything but who're not willing to pay for it.

    It feels like you guys actually think that Scirra did not think this through.

    But i guess i'm talking to a wall.

    I understand that Scirra is moving towards a subscription model.

    Am I happy about it? No

    Is it necesary ? Yes

    Scirra is working on Construct for a living.

    Since their team has grown, they have to pay some more wages than before.

    You guys were asking for a bigger team in the first place... what do you expect, a miracle?

    A subscription based model gives them the possiblity to be able to actually predict a stable income for their entire team.

    Depending on how much customers are following the subscription plan, they might be able to hire even more developers.

    This is exactly what each one of you has been asking for.

    And now, when Scirra finally reached that point of a bigger dev team to push Construct to the next level you're all crying out loud.

    Yes, other engines/tools use a model where you have to pay once you're making money with your project.

    But due the fact that Construct Customers do not create AAA titles or anything that comes close, that model would never work out.

    So please, just shut the **** up, seriously.

    If you're so upset about it, share it with your imaginary plush.

    This is the real world.

    And to the other point:

    We all knew that C3 is building up on the core of C2.

    Yes, no one asked for a web based editor.

    But going crazy before you've even seen what they've been working on exactly is nuts.

    I'm sure they have been listening to us, but that does not mean that they are going to realize every single thing we're asking for.

    This is Scirra's vision, not yours.

    The native situation has been discussed for years.

    And you've known the answer before they have announced C3.

    There's no reason to bring it back up each freaking time you get the chance to do so.

    Let's wait and see what they've been working on.

    And once the beta comes out, create topics with proper feedback.

    Thank you

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  • That's basically what lannaert used to reach this goal.

    The problem is here that, bounce off triggers once it overlaps already.

    So you actually bounce back and forth each tick...

    It's not reliable when high velocity objects move towards walls.

    And objects can be pushed through walls in multiplayer scenarios, when 2 players walk into each other for example.

    This causes really unpredictable bugs.

    I wasn't able to find an actual real solution until this date.

    And the fact that Ashley and his team do not take care about further enhancements on the Multiplayer feature, i'm not sure if Construct is the place to be.

    Especially not within an isometric/online multiplayer environment.

  • Rewinding Time:

    https://www.scirra.com/tutorials/892/mu ... ge-8#h2a18

    Local Input Prediction:

    https://www.scirra.com/tutorials/892/mu ... ge-7#h2a15

    I can only recommend reading through the entire tutorial.

    But using the Rewinding Time will ensure that the HOST is able to recalculate what the player actually saw, and handle accordingly.

    Just think about it in a Shooter Game like Battlefield for instance.

    What would you think if you shot someone in the head, but the server didn't recognize it?

    That would kill the entire fun.

    With rewinding the time, the server can recalculate the actual position of where the enemy was standing from your standpoint when you triggered the shot.

    Otherwise the Host will think, the enemy was already behind the wall and you shot into the void.

    With local input prediction you can ensure that the players input will be immediatly shown on their screen.

    Even though the server did not even get your input as of yet.

    As soon as the server recieved your input, it will sync the information back to the player, and in case the prediction was wrong, it will do some small corrections to get you back in place.

    Otherwise, if you only let the players move as soon as the server responded, it will feel very very laggy for the players.

    For a real-time multiplayer game.

    It is KEY, to send really ONLY required information.

    AND the information sent must be set as SMALL AS POSSIBLE.

    More details at the bottom.

    What do we want to sync?

    And which ones need to be fast?

    - NO client side prediction for deaths

    Because if we blow up a player and then realize it was mis-prediction, we would have to bring it back together.

    This would look kinda weird!

    Basic Information

    ---------------------------------

    High (double, 8 bytes):

    a double-precision floating-point number that can store numbers without affecting their precision.

    It has about 15-17 significant digits of precision. However it takes 8 bytes to store a single number,

    which can end up increasing bandwidth requirements significantly.

    In practice this is unlikely to be a necessary choice.

    Normal (float, 4 bytes):

    a single-precision floating-point number that can store fractional numbers with about 6-9

    significant digits of precision. This means some numbers will be rounded to fewer significant digits.

    However it is usually far more practical than a double, since it only takes half as many

    bytes and digits beyond the first 6 are usually unimportant

    (e.g. 0.333333 is close enough to 0.333333333333333 for practical purposes).

    Low (int16, 2 bytes):

    a signed 16-bit integer that can only store whole numbers in the range -32768 to 32767.

    Very low (uint8, 1 byte):

    an unsigned 8-bit integer that can only store whole numbers in the range 0 to 255.

    To minimise bandwidth, it is important to choose the lowest precision possible that will

    not seriously affect gameplay. For example X and Y positions can often use low (int16) precision.

    As long as the layout is smaller than 32767x32767 (which is very large), and sub-pixel positions

    are not important to gameplay (since this will round off any fractional value), it is perfectly

    sufficient and uses four times less bandwidth than a double.

    For example:

    If your total of all synced data is 32bytes:

    2 players = 32 x 2 x 2 = 128 bytes per update x tickrate 60 = 0,06 Mb/s (Required Upload Rate of Host)

    4 players = 32 x 4 x 4 = 512 bytes per update x tickrate 60 = 0.25 Mb/s (Required Upload Rate of Host)

    Even though the player count increases linearly, the bandwidth requirement increases proportional

    to the square.