Showcase games will come with time.

I do hope you're right about showcase games coming with time. I think that's the number one thing we need for C2 to really take off. Prospective designers need to be able to see what they're shooting for, and what their devkit is truly capably of.

I agree with Kyatric that C2 hasn't really been 'ready' for a large game for that long - certainly for less time than it would take to make a large game - which is a very major part of the reason why what C2 has had made with it are smaller games.

You guys are probably right, then. Typical development time for top-tier, full-sized games written in another platform I've been heavily involved with is about six months to a year, depending. So, I guess it depends on when we think a major project using C2 should have begun, and Kyatric's saying it's been fully up and running for about six months. Plus, you can't rush genius. =P

Re: Loot Pursuit, I think the take-away is that you are more important than any project, even one as beautiful as LP. LP, as envisioned, could indeed be that standout game you referenced ;)

Awww! TL22, you actually implemented a "hug" action! That was sweet. I felt bad I couldn't hug the Dad good night, though. =P

You will never find perfect tool for doing everything everybody wants. C2 is a perfect tool for any 2d game genre (not 2.5d, not 3d). It's more like a game engine or framework and it's only up to You how You want to use it.

Right, and I think that's an important part of the conversation. Is C2 right for every game, and the answer's clearly not. It *is* however, marvelously suited for certain types of game, and I think we're exploring that here.

Inventory? I've made full inventory system with options like examine items/logs, read logs, combine items, use items.. in one day using arrays and families - with only simple knowledge about arrays.

Exactly, it could be done, but it's not naturally built in to the engine. With your experience, and knowledge of arrays, you were able to create that capability, but someone with no knowledge of collision physics can make a couple clicks and have a functioning platform, because that is built into the game. On a fundamental level, C2 supports platformers, and similarly does not have that same support for fundamental components of RPGs, as you illustrated.

Kyatric, I think we actually agree, except you and Arima have a more concrete understanding of C2's full capabilities. It seems like AirScape might represent the best of the last "generation" of C2, and like I said, AirScape is fun and commercial.

But based on that, and the number of failed or perpetually delayed or truly bad RPGs we've seen, C2 of the past hasn't been the right tool for that genre. You point out, which one of my own observations, that C2 has drawn mainly small-project short-timeframe devs.

We need to find/cultivate devs like Jonathan who will make high quality long-term projects . If I were Scirra, I'd consider encouraging or in some way sponsoring a team capable of delivering a commercial game perhaps ultimately funded via Kickstarter.   You'd want at least one programmer like Yann or Rojo, one of the crazy talented artists I've seen here, and a writer/designer. Putting out one remarkable indie game would do the whole community/brand a truly transformative amount of good.

I'm still not sure why you keep mentioning 3d games like NWN.

Well, if it helps, you can ignore NWN, although based on what you were saying, 2D pre-rendered backgrounds, the right collision masking, and artful use of lighting could in theory largely replicate it, albeit without "free-look" features. Fallout 1&2, Planescape, etc., though ... ?

I think it would be great if C2 were the best 2D tool for all types of games, but for certain genres it would take much more support for certain elements specific to it. (Right now you can make a platform in seconds, but there's no "inventory" type which is fundamental to an RPG, for example.)

What's really holding back C2 from big games isn't the tools. it's that there are no development teams that can dedicate the time and resources. Even the kickstarter C2 projects are usually only 1 or 2 people and the goal isn't that much.

I mainly agree: as I mentioned in my post above, responding to Arima, there have been some remarkable games from just one or two-person studios (Braid had phenomenal gameplay, artwork, and music, even if the storyline was questionable and the writing hacky at best), and I think Ubi, AirScape, and a couple others are great ambassadors for C2. I thought extremely hard myself before choosing C2 for my current project, and for someone of my resources and skill level, and given the type of game I'm making, I absolutely made the right choice.

Since all I've got right now is a mouth and vaporware, I'm not in too much of a position to start talking about being the one to create the breakout C2 game, but if I can make the relatively simple one I'm working on now, then I'm going to want to have some serious discussions with Yann, Telles, Ashley/Tom about what we can really get C2 to pull off. You'll know I'm getting close when my "How Do I?" requests get progressively less sophomoric.

C2 definitely needs someone to make that standout, flagship game which puts the brand on every game blog and inspires future development. Somehow, we're going to have to cultivate that person or team who can put in the time or resources.

And as for your note about 3D, that was my point--C2 may be phenomenal for certain games, but it's not a tool for *every* game

Also, there are lots of 2d RPGs out there, though it's true they're mainly in the indie scene, and those projects you linked aren't exactly indie studios. There's different levels of expectations for indies.

I was thinking down the lines of, can C2 be used for truly high-quality, large-scale projects? Right now, C2 has no flagship game which really highlights its full capabilities, so as someone who's still quite a newbie when it comes to development, I probably have a decent idea what might theoretically be done with C2, but on the other hand, without that shining example I might be underestimating it.

I can't think of a reason why C2 couldn't be used for hugely successful games like SpaceChem or Braid, but the truth of our current state of affairs is that virtually all of even C2's best games would fall into the above-average hobbyist range, like No One Has to Die, AirScape, and Super Ubi Land. That's not a knock on those games, because they're all legitimately strong games, and they were made by small teams or just one person (like Braid). (And hey I just ran across Magi, which is really delightful.)

From what I can tell, C2 is ideally suited to these sorts of games. No one's yet made an RPG with C2 that anyone would consider buying, while I can easily see an expanded version of AirScape making silly amounts of money in independent sales or on Steam or XBox/etc.

T:ToN and PE both use pre-rendered backgrounds with true 3-D characters and creatures, which C2 might be able to duplicate some of, but I'd just have to see a playable demo (or have Ashley or Tom promise it's so) to believe it's possible or practical to make a game on par with even Planescape: Torment, Fallout 1&2, or Neverwinter Nights. C2 doesn't have to be the perfect tool for all games, just the best one for some.

I'm not sure why you would recommend using unity for an rpg instead of c2? I can tell you from experience c2 is entirely capable of making them. I've also read quite a few people talking about how unity can be a bit hard to work with for 2d.

Well, for a "modern" RPG, I think most people are expecting either a 3D or a 2.5 engine to bring it to life, and would also appreciate higher quality graphics.

I don't think you could do a Torment: Tides of Numenera or Project Eternity in C2. Both of them, who could have used any engine available, chose Unity for their quasi-indie-yet-AAA RPGs.

It's going to depend on the type of large game. I think it would be better to implement an RPG in Unity or a graphic adventure in Wintermute, or a text game in Inform, but for platformers, shooters, and puzzle games of virtually any size, I'd go for C2 first.

Sheesh, his new one's up to 3,600 views since this afternoon. At least this one is almost valuable, even if it just restates information from other tutorials ...

Great minimalist game, and well-polished!

Nice link, Telles0808! The guy has a very clear presentation style, and he clearly knows what he's doing.