Making big games on C2

Dont forget the final layer Jayjay, the app creator.

newt Well yes but you can only optimize after each of the layers below have taken their toll, and also there have indeed been big games in C2 like the ones on Steam that are listed earlier in this thread.

Not that there aren't sub-layers to that.

Publishing, promotion, etc.

All kinds of third party support.

Jayjay

I just want to add something to your list. It's good in the order, but I want add this because a lot of people tend to gravitate using Unity or GameMaker as C2 optional alternative.

Unity

Exported Game

OpenGL/DX

Unity libraries that don't always meet C# standards(we have had basic classes of C# not work on mobile)

Unity Player

OS

Drivers

Hardware

unity Player is I found anywhere from 5mb to 15mb in size. It's packaged with all Unity games. Unity does not seem to output a pure game code system.

The key is to avoid per-instance work for every instance in the layout, and to narrow the scope only to the active/visible area of the layout.

What exactly does per-instance work mean?

looks like memory usage would be your key concern. If you're focusing on desktop only and plan on never ever releasing a console port, go with C2. If you're even slightly interested in taking your game to consoles when it is complete, I recommend not going with C2 as it stands right now. NO consoles have good HTML5 support for larger games / games with a higher memory requirement at the moment. Unfortunately I feel this is true even for the Wii U.

the consoles should not matter for performance issues since they have a different way of working then PC's, they are not using as much resources as a computer (GPU CARDS , CPU POWER , RAM power) they have their own necessities, if its ported to console i wouldn't doubt that the game will run flawless. as for html5 support, Nintendo has a custom plugin for c2 , available only when u are registered and contact Ashley on Nintendo forum.

I'm still very very satisfied by how well a C2 game can run, even on old hardware.

My game runs very smoothly even on crappy laptops now, I'm impressed.

You definitely can push hard on C2, and have tons of ressources with no problem. It does a superb job at managing/optimizing the memory for you.

As jobel mentioned it, I had some problems with people wanting to stream some Penelope footage.

Half of these problems were only because of me (you would want to have a look at "delta time" management way more closely than I did) as I didn't test enough my game in extreme conditions (under 15fps or at more than 100fps on top end monitors).

The other half is how the frameskip is handled in C2. 40fps doesn't look like 40fps but sometimes feel more like 20, and when people stream the game in bad conditions (play+local record+ online stream on poor setup) it shoes. For normal use, aka only play the game at 60fps on many many machines, you can be sure it will compare very well with games made using Unity or GM. Again, even 2 years later, I'm still happily surprised by the C2 perfs.

Honestly, if you're not interested in consoles (<be really sure of this, all consoles), I don't see why you shouldn't pick C2 for your game. No engine is perfect, and this one is very good, very fast, very cheap and have a GUI designed by a brilliant mind. Wish you the best with your game!

I'm still very very satisfied by how well a C2 game can run, even on old hardware.

My game runs very smoothly even on crappy laptops now, I'm impressed.

You definitely can push hard on C2, and have tons of ressources with no problem. It does a superb job at managing/optimizing the memory for you.

As jobel mentioned it, I had some problems with people wanting to stream some Penelope footage.

Half of these problems were only because of me (you would want to have a look at "delta time" management way more closely than I did) as I didn't test enough my game in extreme conditions (under 15fps or at more than 100fps on top end monitors).

The other half is how the frameskip is handled in C2. 40fps doesn't look like 40fps but sometimes feel more like 20, and when people stream the game in bad conditions (play+local record+ online stream on poor setup) it shoes. For normal use, aka only play the game at 60fps on many many machines, you can be sure it will compare very well with games made using Unity or GM. Again, even 2 years later, I'm still happily surprised by the C2 perfs.

Honestly, if you're not interested in consoles (<be really sure of this, all consoles), I don't see why you shouldn't pick C2 for your game. No engine is perfect, and this one is very good, very fast, very cheap and have a GUI designed by a brilliant mind. Wish you the best with your game!

Not to mention that Unity requires you to have serious coding knowledge, and GM doesn't do multiplayer nearly so easily.

the consoles should not matter for performance issues since they have a different way of working then PC's, they are not using as much resources as a computer (GPU CARDS , CPU POWER , RAM power) they have their own necessities, if its ported to console i wouldn't doubt that the game will run flawless. as for html5 support, Nintendo has a custom plugin for c2 , available only when u are registered and contact Ashley on Nintendo forum.

I was actually speaking specifically from experience in trying to port Cosmochoria to Wii U. It did not run well on the Wii U dev kit, even after lots and lots and lots of optimizations. The question is not whether the console has the hardware capabilities, it's all down to the simple question of how well it supports & optimizes javascript/html5. We're not dealing with some kind of console native code running on the console here.

> best to star with small projects, but finishing them is not always necessary. I've done lots and lots of different test projects over the few years in C2 and learned much about streamlining things and how to make the project easier to control in the grand scale.

>

yes I understand but that's not what I mean. When you actually finish a game -- completely finish and put those finishing touches on it. That's when a lot of stuff you never knew about comes out to play. When your core gameplay is complete and you get into the overarching gameplay, level design and "packaging" of your game, there's a whole new level of development that needs to happen.

Like sqiddster was saying about performance issues when you put the whole polished game to the test on multiple machines (playtesting). And other things that come out like, "The Next Penelope" not being able to stream on Twitch and some other issues with captures because of HTML5 etc... or Save Game data, or Leaderboards or Greenworks etc... it's definitely not easy!

There was a point where I could easily capture footage using Fraps/Node-Webkit for my C2 game project, but that seems to have broken in recent releases, capturing a black screen. Do we even know if it's a NW or C2 issue? Prior to that even on the slower machine I take around to events for playtest (dual-core i3 microATX), I had no trouble getting 60fpx at 1080p while capturing audio/video footage.

> The key is to avoid per-instance work for every instance in the layout, and to narrow the scope only to the active/visible area of the layout.

>

What exactly does per-instance work mean?

Ashley

I'm also interested into some more details on this one.

Are you saying that we should avoid using instances on objects ?

Or what exactly do you mean?

And whatever it is, what should we use instead to avoid performance issues?

> the consoles should not matter for performance issues since they have a different way of working then PC's, they are not using as much resources as a computer (GPU CARDS , CPU POWER , RAM power) they have their own necessities, if its ported to console i wouldn't doubt that the game will run flawless. as for html5 support, Nintendo has a custom plugin for c2 , available only when u are registered and contact Ashley on Nintendo forum.

>

I was actually speaking specifically from experience in trying to port Cosmochoria to Wii U. It did not run well on the Wii U dev kit, even after lots and lots and lots of optimizations. The question is not whether the console has the hardware capabilities, it's all down to the simple question of how well it supports & optimizes javascript/html5. We're not dealing with some kind of console native code running on the console here.

oh well then that's a totally different ball game ? need to solve a problem... maybe u have a better idea( was thinking using raycaster... not sure if its even possible with c2)

I was actually speaking specifically from experience in trying to port Cosmochoria to Wii U. It did not run well on the Wii U dev kit, even after lots and lots and lots of optimizations. The question is not whether the console has the hardware capabilities, it's all down to the simple question of how well it supports & optimizes javascript/html5. We're not dealing with some kind of console native code running on the console here.

I think the main problem here is because Nintendo webkit is still a canvas implementation and not a webgl one. If and when Nintendo switches that should be perfectly right for games like yours (which is great BTW)!

Thanks Gianmichele! I agree, there are some optimizations they really NEED to do to the NWF. Not much I can say past that, unfortunately.

There seems to be a flood of responses going on here, but I didn't notice some important info on first glance.

Nobody here seemed to mention the problem c2 currently has with work flow scalability. Creating a robust frame work for a large game that leaves you with plenty of options can be a chore with c2. It's not to say you can't do it, but lets say you wanted to create smashbrothers... Creating a multi state machine that each compound character can use is going to be funnn fun fun , and way more complicated than just cracking out the code and coding.

I am an artist btw, but if you can use logic, then you can code. I recommend c2 for quick dev of prototypes, an indispensable tool for making small games, but a headache for organizing large projects. The work flow simply decreases as the needs of the game become more flexible.

Also, if you plan on pushing a unique idea, construct 2 may impose a number of limitations of which there are too many to list... but its not uncommon on the forums to be told you just can't do x,y, or z due to x, y, or , z.

But alas, the only way you may discover these things and if they pertain to you is to start working. Construct 2 is a great tool, and you can try out alot with the free version. Make something then see what you think. Make the same thing in Unity, and see what you think. In the end I recomend both. c2 for speed, unity for sophistication. and if you want, there is always the sdk, but lets clear something up right away, you can't make "everything" with the sdk. There are limitations there as well.. .. But lets face it, you can't make everything on one thing, that's why there are all the other things... It also depends on how much "out of the box functionality you want" . Construct 2 has a ton of pure awsomeness from the get go, but it may be a little more difficult to expand that via the sdk than in, say, unity or unreal.

Sorry to muddy the water.