(r252) Event dialogs are opening with a delay on Windows 10

— , thanks for the links. I've actually increased the icon cache size to 8Mb about a week ago, this didn't make any difference.

I tried deleting Thumbnails in Disk Clean-Up, this didn't remove the lag with event dialogs.

Tried manually deleting files from C:\Users\Stan\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Windows\Explorer folder - some files were deleted, some not. This didn't help either.

When I start C2 for the first time after deleting Thumbnails, a few new files are created in that folder.

But no new files are added with consecutive launches. In fact the whole folder stays at about 10Mb and its size does not increase much over time.

dop2000 i think only thing is if you can try with an old version of windows10 formatting all your system then reinstalling W10 and C2.

if problem disappear we are all 100%secure that ins'nt a Construct bug but something related at some update changes.

Providing this specific information a Ashley i think we can help him to focus if is it possible to do something about the issue

— , I'm not a big fan of formatting and reinstalling everything. And I can't do this anyway. This is a work laptop and I have some other important software on it that will be a pain to re-install and configure.

And I don't understand how re-installing windows will help to find the cause of this problem.

I'm 100% positive it's not just my PC, as I'm not the only one who have these issues.

Here is the list of users who reported these or similar issues on Windows 10:

BiffanyPFH

humanescape

shushpo

chadorireborn

BackendFreak (possibly, OS Build 15063.850)

digitalsoapbox (Win 10 Enterprise)

alihaider123

The Mnk (possibly)

UberLou

Colludium (has had this issue for 2 years)

Edit: updated list.

dop2000 could be helpful isolate what Windows version/update begin this conflict with C2 then understand why and if it is a problem of Microsoft or a problem of Scirra.

How come the same Windows API that creates icons works fast after reboot and becomes extremely slow an hour later after C2 application was launched a hundred times?

I've no idea. Maybe it's a memory leak in Windows or something. It could be antivirus or Windows Defender or some other tool on the system interfering.

[quote:3nrgmglq]So here is an uneducated speculation - maybe all these icons from every C2 session are cached or indexed or something like that, and this cache/index never gets reset?

AFAIK that's impossible. The operating system forcibly removes all the processes' memory when the app is closed. There is no way to keep any behind, so there is no way a cache could be left behind either.

As for the meltdown/spectre patches, AFAIK there are actually a number of patches going out, including microcode updates for CPUs. (I'm not sure if those can even be uninstalled!) It may be that it's a different patch that is responsible, but it's pretty rare that any OS update has any noticable negative performance impact, and it seems everyone suddenly started noticing a slowdown around the time the whole meltdown/spectre thing was being reported, so it does seem to line up pretty well.

Anyway, even if it's a different patch, and we eventually figure out which one it is exactly... there still might not be anything we can do. We could rearchitect the whole icon engine to asynchronously create icons in the background or something, but that is a massive amount of work, likely comes with a slew of nasty cache invalidation or race condition bugs, and we simply don't have the resources for it. Meanwhile you can just use "Don't show unique icons" which appears to entirely bypass the issue. So, sorry folks, not sure we're going to be able to do anything on this one.

For the record, this is categorically an issue with Windows. Unless the dialog still takes a long time to appear with "Don't show unique icons", then any delay is entirely in Windows, and there is no question about whether it's in C2. I also can't resist pointing out the great irony that people accuse us of depending on third parties too much with HTML5, but you can't get away from third parties on native either!

Ashley,

The meltdown/spectre patches would be a good explanation if the issues with performance were consistent. But C2 works fast after windows reboot and only slows down over time. Also, these patches are supposed to hit the performance by 30% max. A lag of 4-5 seconds after almost any mouse click feels more like 30000%

Working faster after reboot would suggest that its something to do with reading from memory. The nature of the bug, or the fix, kind of goes along with that.

Also I believe the 30% hit number was given as a system wide expectation.

dop2000

You can uninstall specific windows updates from the "programs and features" program in control panel. You can also block windows update from re-installing it with a tool by microsoft or you can temporarily disable updates by setting your network connection to be "metered".

The microcode updates, seem to be applied per boot so they aren't permanent from what I read. Unless you manually flash a new bios.

For the record, this is categorically an issue with Windows. Unless the dialog still takes a long time to appear with "Don't show unique icons", then any delay is entirely in Windows, and there is no question about whether it's in C2. I also can't resist pointing out the great irony that people accuse us of depending on third parties too much with HTML5, but you can't get away from third parties on native either!

The dialog does, in fact, still take a long time to appear with the "Don't show unique icons" option set in preferences. And, as mentioned previously, it gets worse over time until a full restart.

Interesting that this occurs only with C2 and not with any other, more complex software that features heavy icon/generated thumbnail usage that I've tested, but is categorically a Windows issue due to recent patches, despite occurring on multiple systems here (as in, directly in front of my eyes), where Windows updates have not been installed in months.

If I'm reading this correctly, the "third party" you're referring to is Microsoft. In which case, reality is that they're the first party. Because it's their OS that software is expected to run on, and not the other way around. It is the software developer's job to ensure that the software is fully functional on the OS it's designed to run on - especially when that software is still for sale, and even if the blame can "uncategorically" be placed on an OS update. This fact - and it is a fact - of software development doesn't seem all that difficult to understand. The mental gymnastics to avoid the obvious probably take more effort.

You mentioned upon the release of C3 that Scirra would be fixing any bugs that appear in C2 - this is a bug, regardless of whose fault it is. If Scirra will no longer be fixing known, proven issues that occur when using the software they have for sale, please let users know so that the appropriate steps can be taken.

Thanks, digitalsoapbox for the support. Which windows version and build are you using?

In my case "Don't show unique icons" option reduces the lag significantly. But this can not be considered a solution or workaround, as not having unique icons HUGELY affects the usability.

Is anyone wants to test if your system is affected, here is the batch script that I used.

Download this capx, create a text file in the same folder, name it RunAgain.bat :

start test_lagging_win10.capx 
timeout /t 40 
taskkill /IM Construct2.exe 
timeout /t 10 
RunAgain.bat 
[/code:u9erp6dy] 
 
Run the bat file. Take a note how many seconds does it take for C2 software to open. Leave the script running and go have some lunch or dinner  
Check again in 30-60 minutes to see if C2 startup time has increased. And then test if there are any lags with opening event dialogs, context menus, sprite editor etc., similar to this [url=https://youtu.be/8thpozIBnUU]video[/url].

dop2000

You can uninstall specific windows updates from the "programs and features" program in control panel.

THIS

dop2000 you don't need format PC, just try R0J0 suggestion until you discover which update is responsable of the issue

NN81,

I spent 2 hours of my life uninstalling updates and testing C2.

I removed almost all updates, including KB4056892 with Meltdown patch.

(two updates KB4054022, KB4057247 couldn't be uninstalled, as they are "required by my computer").

No improvement whatsoever, same lags.

Also if you read digitalsoapbox's comment above, he claims that these issues are happening on computers "where Windows updates have not been installed in months".

The dialog does, in fact, still take a long time to appear with the "Don't show unique icons" option set in preferences.

This contradicts the original report:

Setting "Icon Mode=Don't show unique icons" removes the lag completely.

So my first assumption would be a separate issue to the one originally reported here. Since I've not seen this specific behavior mentioned before and it differs to the one reported here, it should have its own thread to follow up on, with full steps to reproduce etc.

[quote:l5zzvxxg]If I'm reading this correctly, the "third party" you're referring to is Microsoft. In which case, reality is that they're the first party.

This is nonsense. By conventional terminology, we are the first party, you are the second party, and everyone else is third party.

[quote:l5zzvxxg]You mentioned upon the release of C3 that Scirra would be fixing any bugs that appear in C2 - this is a bug, regardless of whose fault it is.

Third party issues are not our responsibility to fix. Despite this we occasionally go above and beyond the call of duty and fix them anyway, where it's feasible. I know users don't care whose fault an issue is, but you should not insist we fix problems that are not directly our responsibility and may not have any feasible resolution - that's strike one of three:

[quote:l5zzvxxg]Don't troll the developers

...

Demanding a resolution when none is practical. Some issues will have no good resolution, such as an issue caused by a specific graphics driver version on a particular OS and hardware combination. It is not feasible to investigate such issues, particularly if the evidence suggests the problem is not in our code. It is also unreasonable to demand an explanation of the inner workings of these other pieces of software we've had no part in developing.

Ashley,

I understand why you might feel like being trolled, but please try to understand our position too. We paid for this software and it is in our rights to expect you (Scirra) to fix problems with it. Working with lagging application on a daily basis is extremely annoying and frustrating, and this is one of the reasons behind some heated comments.

You can remove such comments, but please don't close the entire post!

I created it hoping to exchange information with other users and maybe find a solution together. Closing the post will achieve nothing.

There is no and has never been an accepted definition of "third party" in which a piece of software that is marketed as running on a specific OS is the first party and the OS is the third.

The OS is the host. The software is the guest. With no OS, the software cannot run. From the disturbingly limited POV of Scirra, Microsoft may be *a* third party, but you are still a guest in their house.

If the software does not run on the OS, that is a software issue, regardless of if it ran on the OS okay previously, and regardless of that being the fault of the OS or software. The OS makes the rules. Period. This has always been the case. It is not a new development or concept. It predates the birth of every single person on this forum.

Construct is not a special case. It is not an exception to established rules. Microsoft provides a platform, and developers create software to run on their platform, not the other way around. You are running on their OS at their discretion. If they want to make changes, and it breaks something you did (assuming that's what happened here), it's on you to make it work again. Not them. This has always been the case, outside of extreme circumstances. Once again, Construct is not an exception to the rules. It is a tiny software fish in a much, much larger OS ecosystem. It is not the top of the food chain, or the arbiter of change, on the OS.

In the end, none of this argument matters. Fix the software so it works properly or sunset it. One thing that can't be explained away regardless of shifting definitions of terms or the placement of blame is the effects of selling faulty software, to both Scirra's reputation, or potential violation of, say, Steam's policies surrounding the sales of software with known, breaking issues. So if Scirra doesn't want to fix their software, I can't imagine there won't be any (more) consequences to that decision.

Maybe Scirra can also not try to alter the definition of trolling to pointing out that it is a software developer's responsibility to ensure that the software they produce works properly, and no one else's? Because it isn't. It's on Scirra to support the software they develop and sell. Transparent attempts to handwave away this responsibility, or place blame, does not make the software work as it should. Vague, conveniently-applied "rules" on a forum do not change this, and I would think it would be better for Scirra's reputation that it's dealt with on their forum instead of say, the rest of the internet where, as a reminder, Scirra has zero control of what content can be posted or read.

But hey, it's your business. You can not support the products you sell if you don't want to, despite that approach going against previous announcements related to ongoing support. But that's going to cause issues past the hurt feelings of a Scirra developer that can't admit when they may be wrong about something.

NOTE: Edited for overall clarity, spelling, snark.