Ashley

Now this might make me unpopular here on the forums but as you have not addressed what I have written in the posts here I will once again write it out so that this time you can adress these worries of mine.

What exactly is the problem? Well I have mentioned that in my previous posts here but you did not seem to adress it. So I am reminding you of the parts which were directed strictly at you:

[quote:5ivvus3v]Why is this information not in a FAQ or anywhere that is visible? Why have potiential C2 licence buyers, like myself before purchasing C2 licence, have not been informed about this?

I for one would like to produce games strictly for PC, and as you might imagine adding 130 (!) mb to my game from the beginning is such a huge handicap, its mind blowing to me.

[quote:5ivvus3v]How about having a NW.js export in free version with a big massive Scirra watermark and a 320x240 resolution limit? And a big notice stating: this NW.js export is from the free C2 version, and is not allowed for commercial distribution. And 20 seconds play time the most before the NW.js window closes. Now does that not sound fair?

The first problem I have is of a marketing nature, and of "buying" a cat in bag sort of scenario, at least when it comes to this part of C2.

Do you think it is fair to not give a person the chance to try out an export of your only standalone method of publishing for the PC and not inform about add additional handicap which is present at this situation?

Do you think the answer is just to brush this off and say: eh you can always use html5 to export, as that was not my main reason for purchasing C2?

I for one will say that you sound quite arrogant saying that there is no problem whatsoever. If there is no problem perfomance wise (which I am reading just now in your post and in some of the previous posts) there is a problem of a more moral standing - how this was not mentioned.

It is plain to see that this feature of C2 not mentioned anywhere, nor was it available to test out.

How about adding this to a FAQ, and writing there the things you have told me just now after me trying to figure what was going on.

• Every exported game for standalone PC wil have an additional 60 to 90 mb increase in size after export to our standalone PC app version.

You can always zip this (well to be honest do you think I dont know one can zip a file? and guess what, a file that is 60~90 mb less, wieighs even less when it is zipped!) or you can use our html5 export if it doesnt suit you.

Now as a customer that doesnt want to export html5 ---- as I can only publish this to the web if I want to preview it and not even launch from my computer, as is not the case with NW.js, does not cut if for me.

Now once again, did you mention this in your previous post? The fact that substituting NW.js for html5 will only allow you to run html5 once it is published on the web and not straight from my computer? How is it ok for you to compare these two if the workflow regarding publishing both is different?

That there are additional steps that I need to make, get a web page, upload it have it published on the internet - but hey you will just brush it off once more and say - well then do it!

Well no I dont want to do it. I want to get what has been marketed and introduced to me in the free version and in the information on the main page.

There is also the question me wanting (possibly after a probable kickstarter campain) to distribute my game on a dvd/cd rom. Now how is that possible with html5, since html5 needs to be published on the web? Im not sure here that is why I am asking, it might be possible, in which case I am wrong.

[quote:5ivvus3v]So it's perfectly possible that a very large file still be highly efficient

/b]

This is your quote and I would like to remind you that "possible" is not the same as "for sure" or "100% yes". "Possible" = might be yes, might be no. It might be possible.

But I suggest we compare apples to apples, comparing a game to an operating system is not that.

Lets compare games to games, export options to export options. Html5 ---> on the internet, NW.js ----> on your hard drive.

I have bought your software not because it is html5, but because it is a visual-programming software that is easier for beginners. There is information about stand alone export with NW.js without going into the details of, yes I will mention this once again - adding 60~90 mb to ones game.

So to summarize what I would like you to adress if I may as your customer:

1) How is it that this information is nowhere to be learned - the fact that NW.js is 60-90 mb larger once exported.

Again saying that I could use html5 as a substitute does not cut it as these do not work under the same conditions - NW.js being straight out of desktop, and html5 needing to be exported to the web. Can you imagine that for some this is a deal breaker? Also some people - like me for example do not want to publish to web. I only hope you dont start talking about how its better to publish to web, because as you know this thread is not about the reasons for publishing to web or not.

2) Why is there no way to test out NW.js export even under very strict limitations and still not inform people about the additional mb's?

Saying stuff about piracy here I dont think will be adequate as Ive read information - here on Scirra forums, that people use 3rd party wrappers to export games from their free version of C2. I dont know how that works or even if its true but that is what Ive read.

3) Why is there no information about this size increase and that altough this increase in size is there, it will in no way possible affect performance (only download times). That this has to be learned by spending 1 day on the forum - and by asking around.

4) How can you compare hmtl5 export to NW.js export (especially to a customer that does not want to use html5) when both differ in the process of export and I imagine in the process of distribution.

5) Is it possible to distribute a html5 exported game from C2 on DVD? ( why do I have the feeling that you will write about NW.js being 60-90 mb bigger will be of no problem on Dvd - but again that was not the question - remember it is you who suggested html5 export if I dont like the +60~90 mb).

If anything I posted here is not true I will back down from it - here on the forums. But if what I have written is true - I will stand by it.

I understand that after this post my stay here at the forums might be unwelcome. If that is the case so be it I will pack my bags and leave.

I will risk this if it means that I can speak my mind freely regarding issues that I see as problematic for me.

— - good to know, seems all this racket I is blown out of proportion.

60 mb sounds better than 90 that is for sure and in win32 my game is 107mb.

Just one last thing if you could answer even roughly within what range does your total game size fall under?

Quicksand - the file is there in Win32 too ("nw.dll"), but in win32 it weighs ~68mb. In Win64 it weighs ~90, just noticed that difference now as I am on a Win64 OS... If your game is 130 mb at this stage it means that your game is 130 - ~60 = about 70 mb without the wrapper. Thats for win32 desktop. For win64 it would be 70 + ~90 = 160mb.

Which brings me to another question — - are you using Win32 or Win64 to export/show the size of the nw.dll on the screen? My bets now are that you are using Win32.

R0J0hound

Well I wouldnt want to get my hands dirty in the source files for chrome, as obvioulsy I shy away from non-visual programing and the likes.

I would rather use that time to focus on designing my game, as is the idea of visual programing software. Altough I hear what you are saying regarding the size matter not affecting performance, since you have some experience in C2 judging by your coding examples in the forums.

I just would like to ask have you not seen posts that state something different in regards to file sizes above 600mb?

—

Thanks for your screen and information regarding this issue. What is interesting to me is that your dll is around 66mb and mine is around 90mb, while my game is around 130mb with 20 sprites with sizes lower than 128x128 or 64x64 pixels for each sprite and as I mentioned before 495 events and 1 particle system with a 12x12 sprite so far.

This is my screen:

Could you roughly estimate your event number, spirte number and game size while having the nw.dll at 66mb?

What is interesting that when exporting an empty scene today, with no sprites or no events I ended up with a nw.dll that wieghed 129 mb(!) as I did end up mentioning earlier in the thread. Just crazy stuff.

Is it possible for you to export an empty scene with NW.js and see what size is your nw.dll file in that empty scene?

Regarding your other problems with your game do they strictly have to do with NW.js export? (not meaning to go off topic as this thread is about the nw.dll file being large and no info speaking of this anywhere to be seen, but I am curious regarding this matter)

newt

It would be nice to know any other wrapping alternatives, perphaps Ill look for those on the forums but once again, the time I spend on this I would rather focus on game dev.

—

Regarding the debugger, it seems to work for me now. Have you been messing with holding down the ctrl key and scrolling the mouse wheel up and down while in the browser? I did that while thinking Ive switched windows and it somehow impacted the performance of the debugger as it maxed out the quality of the html5 output in the browser I think. Altough be warned to this at your own risk I spend some time trying to fix this, in the end I did but dont remember how exaclty (this has something to do with scaling up and down the content/text in firefox).

As for NW.js being not reliable, what arguments have you got behind this? Just curious as we are close to the subject (if you want to share).

I really do wonder what exactly goes in there (I roughly know its all to do with runfiles for chromium standalone) and why does my empty Nw.js file differ to others (if that is the case).

It would be nice if anyone else could export an empty NW.js file and compare the nw.dll size.

I am curious wether this the size of this nw.dll increases with the size/concent of the NW.js file? But that doesnt make sense when an empty NW.js I made had a ~129 mb nw.dll file size.

(EDIT: the nw.dll size is different for both win32 and win64 - on win32 it weighs ~60mb, on win64 around ~90.)

Eisenhans

It really blows my mind that you are still arguing in favour of C2 in light of my arguments:

1) Lack of ability to test NW.js export in free version - lack of information anywhere in plain sight where one could get to know this.

2) 130mb as handicap straight off the bat.

Your argument: - well you bought a html5 engine (...) you have to distribute it with the game. What has that got to do with anything? I got all the information about C2 from the Scirra main page, from the information posted on the forums (all that I could find and thought as relative) and from most importantly from the free version. Nowhere could I foresee this. Where else could I have gone to learn this?

How about having a NW.js export in free version with a big massive Scirra watermark and a 320x240 resolution limit? And a big notice stating: this NW.js export is from the free C2 version, and is not allowed for commercial distribution. And 20 seconds play time the most before the NW.js window closes. Now does that not sound fair?

At the moment my game weighs maybe 5 mb with about ~20 something sprites, 1 backdrop and 495 events - mostly core mechanics. The sprites are on purpose retro as in pixel graphics. I might end up with approximately 250~300 mb in game size from my calculations (as I have not yet decided to stay with retro or go with more complex design). Maybe. Add to that ~130 handicap. And what if I would like to create a bigger game in the future? Remember I am investing my time in learning C2, I wouldnt like to find out in the future that I have to switch engines.

Are you willing to sign a contract with me assuring me that I will have no problems with perfomance once I create a bigger game? Because you sure sound like you are confident. Just out of curiousity what was the largest game size wise you have created in C2? (not talking about content but just size). How many games have you exported using NW.js, and most importantly shipped? Only on that basis can you be so comfortable as to your arguments.

You might say that one can never be sure when creating Mb heavy games in any engine. That might be true but the fact that there is a handicap +130mb that has not been mentioned does not help.

If your gf/wife bought a dress with a hole in the back especially to go to a play at the theathre, would you tell her that its doesnt matter as mostly she will be sitting through the play? What if there is standing ovation? And what about the journey to and from the theathre?

Maybe a better comparison would be if she had bought clothes that had extra 50 kg weight, and you were about to go hiking.

There are a few people who are notoriously sensitive about file sizes.

But, luckily, almost none of the relevant reviewers and curators are. They will roast you for all kinds of things, but download size is a non-issue.

I'd be more wary about solid performance and well functioning input.

How can I be sure that the file size will not impact my performance down the road in C2? Thas is my point in this thread. I have read around that games bigger in size cause problems in C2. That is my main worry.

Also it seems that I am sensitive about file size. Im not too keen on having that thought lurking at the back of my mind during development.

If I make a game that weights 5mb, why should I have it weigh 135 mb? How does that make sense?

Hmm, it seams that I have had temporary multiple sclerosis.

I asked about this once in the past:

But I dont think I caught the jist of what R0J0hound had written there, about exporting the NWjs as an empty file and then adding the rest of the content on top. That or I was just too excited about C2, as (mostly) everything was going smoothly for me and I have adopted C2 as synonym for rapid prototyping at that moment.

Well it seems the story with C2 for me (as pollitically uncorrect as this might sound) thus far is analogus to that of a girlfriend with a wooden leg. Everything with her is great, her body (at least the rest of it) her charater, humour, intelligence is up to par but there is just that part which prevents you from totally falling in love with her, probably due to fear of what might others say (the point of this story not being that one should not care what others say), but more importatnly how this will turn out in the future.

The others in C2 example are the potential customers, and me myself I am not sure if to continue my game, as I plan on working on it for the next year, and Im not sure how this 130mb can impact on my work in the end.

Now Im not assuming anything over my in dev game, but my hopes are high which is quite normal especially for a person that is developing a game for the first time (even after reading loads of articles about the traps of indie dev, one being that people have too high expectations).

I want to try and make as little mistakes as I can.

I only wish this size issue was somehow mentioned earlier, especially because its not available in the free version. Where could I have learned this?

Now the fact that I am venting my frustration here and not just leaving C2 proves that C2 is a joy to work with at least for me. And nowhere will I mention any competition (even if I do end up changing programs in the end) which only proves that its not my desire to drive people off.

I have found a thread here on the forums (lost the link now - will relink once I find it again) which states that the NW.js export content on the get go weighed about 50mb in the past (for the year 2012/2013 if I recall correctly).

Now as years went by chrome got more and more bloated, so it seems. And this will be true for the comming years no doubt.

newt

With all due respect but comparing a situation to a worse situation is just comforting oneself and not looking at the picture.

Saying if I had one arm chopped off, that if would have been worse if I had both my arms chopped off is just to comfort oneself. It would be much more harder to compare oneself to a person that has both arms.

I have no knowledge about Crosswalk export at this moment, but I would like to look at this situation how its stands.

newt

Well I feel cheated that I have not been informed about this, I have a right to feel that way as a customer. I purchased the software with high expectations, and the export feature was not available in the demo/trial so I had no idea that there was this issue. I was not able to test this out, nor was I told about this matter.

That is why I am annoyed. This comes as a big surprise.

You can tell me that zipped its size is going to be halved.

But you can also tell me that using winrar and dividing it into 130 files, 1mb each in size and letting people download it 1 file each day for 130 days, a file will only weigh 1 mb for that day. Whew what a relief. Now that almost solves the problem does it not?

Now I am using retro graphics, to make my game as small as possible (as well as giving it that indie style of course) but I find out that 130mb+ is as a bonus? Now I think I need to make my graphics weigh negative mb..

C2 is mostly great when it comes to working with it, really solid, but I was not expecting this.

newt

You have got to be joking. This is such a deal breaker.

Ashley

Why is this information not in a FAQ or anywhere that is visible? Why have potiential C2 licence buyers, like myself before purchasing C2 licence, have not been informed about this?

I for one would like to produce games strictly for PC, and as you might imagine adding 130 (!) mb to my game from the beginning is such a huge handicap, its mind blowing to me.

newt

So you mean to tell me that any game will weigh 130 mb from the get go, and on top of that I need to add my graphics/sounds and events?

What the heck? I created an empty game, exported it to NW.js and it weights 129 mb? 0 events, 0 graphics... and 129 mb... crazy.

Does anyone know what is going on?

EDIT: Correction, nw.dll weighs ~90 of my 131 mb game.

What is nw.dll could anyone tell me? (in an NW.js export)

I checked to see if my game would become smaller in size by elimination a big backdrop, and the size did not change.

If it was not for this nw.dll file my game would weigh ~40 mb, now it weighs a little over 130.

Are those my events that weigh that much? How can that be that they weigh so many times more than my graphics?

I currently have 495 events, could anyone that has a simillar number of events confirm if this indeed is because of them?

Thanks for the reply.