The restrictions are very logical when you break down the target platform. C2 exports mostly to JS. You'll have the same limitations (download speed, scripting speed, etc...) Most laptop and desktop browsers can handle a large amount of stuff very easily. Even without implementing WebGl they can handle a lot. Mobile browsers, not so much. Tons of objects and particles will make mobile browsers crawl. But they weren't designed for game playing, they were designed for media consumption. CacoonJS and such will help with that and it speeds up the code a lot, but it still won't be as capable as native java and dalvik (or ART) nor machine code written in C for Android or Objective C on iOS.

Depends on the tool for the job and your game you're trying to make. Keep your restrictions in mind. If you're doing mobile, keep it simple. If you notice, very few mobile games have tons and tons of detail anyway. There';s a reason for that. If you're doing desktop, keep in mind age range of hardware. I know my laptop can handle an awful lot of objects, collision calculations, particles, and everything else being thrown around on the screen. My friends 6 year old laptop with an old Cele and Intel GMA can handle most of that minus webGL stuff.

Lack of sleep will getchya every time.

I wanted to clarify my "I'm not sure it for GameMaker" response. I don;t know enough about GameMaker to know how they export. If they compile GML down to a machine language then it might handle Vector images better. I know they have modules that allow exporting out to nix and HTML 5 among other things. If that's what YoYo is doing though, they have a built in engine to handle SVG or they are converting the SVG graphics to something different at compile time. Nonetheless, using their HTML5 export module with vector graphics would impose the same exact restrictions that C2 would have with them. At that point, despite it being made in GameMaker, the game is still being processed by the native browser of the system with the same limitations.

I'm not sure it is for GameMaker.

In response to the iPad app, I do't belive iOS can handle vector graphics for games. The Universal apps can contain multiple images though and select the proper image for the right device. They can also scale. hence why the Universal apps are so large in size. The squashing from graphics would be because the iPad is a 4:3 ratio while the iPhone is 16:9 ratio (more or less). Chances are, the graphics are scaled higher for iPad resolution and shrunk by the OS to fit the smaller screen instead of using different images.

I think the biggest issue with vectors, and Ashley can correct me if I'm wrong since he designs C2, is that collision events would be a nightmare during run time. As is, collisions stay static to size of the image and location on the image. A lot of collisions already require some heavy processing, especially with a lot of them on the screen. Trying to measure all those collision events while transforming them (animations of vectors) would really suck for an HTML5 based game. As it's been said, the Flash VM was built from the ground up to handle this. Javascript and graphics rendering in browsers were not. A fair amount of processing would probably need to be used to handle them.

Then we get into the issues with mobile. Sure, Windows 8 might be okay, but iOS and Android would not. Playing games through portable browsers wouldn't work. Also, I'm sure it would wreck havoc on CacoonJS.

It, again, was said before, but with the current state of PCs, why care about size so much? I know it seems like a lazy thing to say, but broad band connections are much faster and hard drive sizes are much bigger. The game, if targeting node or HTML5 browser, can always be made in higher res (1080P) and downsized by the system. That would produce FAR less overhead then running SVG animations and transforming collisions on the fly, even for older systems. Also, speaking of older systems, they could handle downsizing rastor images much easier than SVG.

If the target platform is going to be mobile, the game dev will design with that in mind, or port accordingly. It's lazy not to and makes for a bad experience on the player's part. Also, mobile can't do SVG.

At the end of the day it's the right tool for the right job. In this case though, since C2 targets an HTML 5 environment and uses wrappers to port to other platforms, I can't see where a tool like SVG would be beneficial at all. I hate to say it, but if it comes to a point where SVG is a required tool for the job, maybe a different IDE or platform should be used (in this case Flash)?

I originally posted this article on my blog. You can click through and read the entire thing, complete with pretty pictures, if you want to. In the original post on my blog I also included my original draft. I'm not copying that here as it's only reference. Otherwise, the core content of the blog post is copied here. This is a long standing debate. I wanted others to here my arguments and hear what they had to say. Read it, watch the youtube video, and give me your response. I'm genuinely interested to hear what others have to say.

YouTube Video:

I started writing an article a couple of weeks back considering whether games should be considered art. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that games are indeed a form of art. It wasn?t an easy decision though. I hit road blocks at every turn. Every argument I started to reason, I thought of a counter argument. I found a lot of reasons why some games should be considered art and some games shouldn?t be. I found a lot of reasons why some pieces of art should be considered art and some shouldn?t be.

Let me try and explain.

I originally argued that all art can be classified as art because it delivers a message. That?s what separates the arts and crafts, the message from the utilitarian use. That definition didn?t always hold up though. The best example I can think of is listed below in my original piece ? Tony Smith?s ?Die?. It?s supposed to mean many different things. Its six foot by six foot in size so it represents death. I personally don?t see it. I don?t understand it. I see a large box.

I have other examples. Salvador dali, for instance, creates some very interesting work. I like it. I?ll admit, I am a fan. It has no common message though. The same goes for the countless pictures of Christian art created through the renaissance. They typically tell a story and warn people of not offending the church. They are basically period propaganda pieces. Would the propaganda posters of WW2 or today be considered art?

What about architecture? Why is that considered art while pottery is not? Both are utilitarian in nature. Both serve a purpose and neither (usually) share any message.

So what is art then? I still firmly believe that the difference between art and crafts is that art shares a message of some kind. Art will often deliver an emotional message. That is what separates literature from art; art delivers its message through emotions and images while literature delivers it through reason and words. Crafts don?t deliver a message but are merely aesthetically pleasing and help accomplish a task. Because of that definition, art may not mean the same to all people. It also encompasses my biggest conflict; why are films considered art and not video games?

Certainly, not all films are art nor are all games. Like film though, games can make a person feel. They can transmit a state of being, a sense of urgency, and transplant the thoughts or a person in some other time or universe. They can deliver a message. They can provoke players to feel and to respond in the same way that traditional art would.

If one would think that games can?t make audiences feel then I would remind people of the death of Aerith. The death of Aerith at Sephiroth?s hands (Final Fantasy 7) sparked massive fan fair and rumors. Players couldn?t handle her death. Rumors spread all over the internet that Aerith was coming back and that she wasn?t really dead. (I should remind readers that these rumors spread during the early days of the computer boom and internet adoption, back during the hay days of AOL to put it into perspective. Internet use wasn?t the same then as it is now which only furthers the proof of impact of Aeirth?s death) Players actually mourned her death. They wanted to seek redemption. Her death made players feel. The Battlefield series, as much as I wouldn?t want to admit it, force players to realize the angst and destruction of war. ?I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream? generally make people feel despair.

Games do provoke an emotion and response. They deliver a message in a way that neither film, nor traditional art, nor literature can. It?s a new media that is still very much in its infancy. The level of detail and creativity required to provoke such response have only come about in the last 20 years, a short time in the world of art. I think that?s why many critiques don?t consider games to be art. It?s to new. I assure everyone though that games are both a form of art and entertainment. They liven the soul and speak to people. They make players react and think in ways that other media can?t.

Original blog post: Here- Only needs to be read if your interested in the original rough draft. Otherwise ignore it. The original article was going in a different direction but after mulling it over a lot I felt it best to present my argument with the above article.

This year, from what I understand, the start of Hannukkah and Thanksgiving occurred on the same day in the U.S.

I use event sheets and groups heavily. I like to think of it as a bit of OOP to an extent. For instance, I'll have one event sheet only for player controls. In that event sheets I heavily comment and organize things into groups (Eg. Group collisions together, group turning, group shooting stuff, etc...) It makes organization a lot easier.

Thanks for the heads up. I downloaded GM months back and played with it. I like Construct more but that's not to say that GM doesn't have a use and is a good tool for the right job. I've been wondering though, what does GM compile down to? I presumed it's not HTML 5 since they sell a HTML 5.

To those that celebrate, Happy turkey day and Hanukkah to everyone that celebrates! Enjoy your holiday and time with your families!

Valerien Agreed. There are many metrics to look at, some better then others. The idea of applying NPS to a game is only one tool. Someone should never depend totally on only one tool.

With that said though, with freemium type games, and game trends moving to games as a service (the best example would be WOW, but even Angry Birds has a hint of this)gauging existing customers is important to. If customers are responding to star reviews on varying markets, I think it makes sense to utilize that free and already organized data. The caveat, as you mentioned, is that a very small sample pool is prone to more errors. Having only 3 people respond to a star review and well over 2000 downloads is not very indicative. But even a pool as small as a 20% response rate can be helpful (although obviously the more the better).

On the flip side, a game like 'The Last of Us' would have very little impact using this on the current game. That game is written all around the narrative. Naughty Dog isn't going to go in and change things in the game after the fact or add game play. It would be useful to change practices for future games, or DLC, but will have little impact on the current game. (I still wouldn't disuade someone from not using this research for future projects though, but only use it for this type of game as a hindsight kind of deal, learn and move on).

Valerien I think that's part of the problem though. Devs don't speak much about it. The problem is a lot of devs and games don't have dedicated marketing departments or dedicated people ONLY for that. Typically the devs, or start-ups, have to wear multiple hats. Understanding the metrics and having those tools is powerful.

I won't attest that NPS isn't a debated topic. For many people, it doesn't seem like it offers enough information. The problem is that many consumers won't fill out longer surveys, or even surveys with only a few questions. To understand a product, you need as much feedback as possible. NPS works well because of it only asking 1 important questions: the first one is curcial and the second one closes the feedback loop. There is not point in asking a customer what they like and dont like about a game if they won't answer you or you only get two responses.

NPS is very boiled down but the information is extremely powerful. I would read the Ultimate Question or look up the NPS spec on the website. Again, it is open source and is very detailed on the website.

Anyway, I thought I would only offer this as a tool and a suggestion and bring light to the matter. Making games is fun and only, and can make a really great hobby, but those looking at turning it into a business need to consider all aspects of that business.

Ashley I'm sure you saw my other forum suggestions, and not to hijack this thread, but it would be awesome to add some kind of thanks or upvote system for specific posts as well.