d939569e84594e1586eac3e65e28dfb2's Forum Posts

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    , sadly, it looks like it is not a specific Windows 10 Update that causes it, but yet the original Windows 10. I have gotten user reports that Windows 10 stock has the same issue. I have not confirmed myself (honestly, it would take me a long time to setup a VM for this and it won't really help the bug report I don't think).

    I believe it is fair to assume for now, the bug existed since the initial Release of Windows 10.

    But you are right, in either case. The real question is why is it happening. And, is there a fix or workaround. If it is Windows 10, why is it windows 10? Is it how C2 draws things? Is there a fix for it? What changes are involved and how intensive. Is it a 10 minute fix, or 1,000 hour fix? All of this needs to be determined. It would be fully reasonable if the exact root cause was found and announced, and if it is a 1000 hour fix then simply say it is too large to fix and explain why (these types of details might help people build their own workarounds). It is what it is. Or, if it turns out to be a quick fix, yeehaaa everyone is happy. But in order for that to happen, the exact root cause needs to be determined (to the level of knowing exactly what needs to be fixed/changed/patched). Everything else is a mute point.

    Also, thanks for the sample CAPX. Much appreciated I shall add it to the first post.

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    Ashley, firstly. I am sorry for these long winded responses. I did not think I had to write such in-depth responses, but clearly they are needed.

    What evidence have you exactly provided? I cannot seem to find anything that suggest you have provided solid evidence of what the cause is. I find it strange because you say you have not reproduced the issue, but yet know who is to "blame" (I hate to say blame, but you keep throwing that term around. Playing the blame game gets no one anywhere's fast. I could care less about blame, I just care about the issue being fixed)? How can you say what is wrong, without reproducing it and knowing exactly what needs to be done to fix it? And, if you know what the issue is, could you please enlighten us in detail? If I missed this evidence you speak of, could you please point me to where you have solid findings of what causes this issue.

    I also have trouble here, because you keep saying you cannot reproduce the issue, but have shown you hit the issue yourself. I have asked numerous times for results on certain testing, but you have (mostly) ignored my every attempt to help out. You have said a 1 second delay is normal, but when I question why it is instant on W7, and gave an example of if C3 had a 1 second delay per line of code you wrote, would that not be an issue. . . you ignored that completely.

    To be clear (and this is just one example, there are many), numerous times I have asked you to compare W7 to W10 to notice the difference in performance. I have not seen your results for this test. I have also asked you for more details in regards to what you have tried and found (all for the sake of determining the root cause of this bug). Each time, you have provided vague answers, or completely ignored them altogether. Only after asking a few times, did you go into a few details (but as stated previously, leaving out a lot of crucial details to make the replies meaningful to the bug report). I am not sure why I need to ask so many times the same thing for you to finally provide some details. This thread could have been 1 page long had this been handled differently.

    Again, no blame game here. I am asking, or suggestion, perhaps moving forward you could try to be a bit less vague with your answers? These types of responses don't help, and delay the bug further. They also cause unnecessary clutter and the need for further clarification.

    This question does not make sense, because C2 is not idling in this situation.

    Perhaps idling was not the right word. When C2 is lagging, what is it doing. That is what I meant. Comparing W10 to W7, what is the difference when you debug it.

    We're a small team, and we're only human. If you are refusing to co-operate and believe the things I say, I will probably prioritise my time with users who do co-operate and believe the things I say. I've made a special effort to investigate this issue ahead of the normal schedule and have spent some time detailing the evidence I've found and, with the experience of dealing with thousands of bug reports, what I believe it points to the cause being. If this counts as "complete disregard", then I am sure nothing I do will please you. I think you are just trolling me, so I will step away from this issue for the time being and return to it on our normal schedule, or if any compelling new evidence is raised and discussed in a constructive and co-operative manner.

    I don't believe anyone could seriously take me as a troll with this bug. The amount of effort I have shown in trying to get this resolved, really surprises me you could even call me un-co-operative and a troll. I only want to get this issue fixed.

    The fact that you are making a whole platform suffer, because you think I am trolling, is just unbelievable. Are you overlooking the numerous examples, pictures, user-accounts, and videos posted throughout this thread by numerous users?

    I have shown C2 has performance issues on Windows 10. There is solid evidence and a ton of data collected on it in this thread.

    I have offered up my time to you. I have offered to help on many occasions. You have ignored my every request to offer help. I have offered talking to you over a sharing session, so you can see the issue and debug it further. I have offered to send you a VM. I have offered to debug the issue if you send me the proper tools. Every. Single. Request. You have ignored. So, how exactly am I being un-co-operative and come off as trolling? I (and many others, as seen in this very thread) genuinely want this issue fixed.

    To be clear. If you get any hint, of anything other than me wanting to have this bug solved. Please re-read this entire thread (I would recommend this anyways, so you can see how many questions have gone unanswered and possibly answer them, and perhaps you might see I have the most sincerest regard with this bug). My goal here, is to find and have fixed the C2 Performance issues in W10. I have no other intent, except to help the community. Many members of the C2 community are affected by this bug. Many have thanked me many times for my due diligence and suggestions to help mitigate the issue. I ask you Ashley, if you truly think I am trolling you should re-read all of these post from start to finish. You have the wrong idea, and there is a large misunderstanding. Let's get that cleared up so we can move forward and better C2 for the community. If we don't, slowly overtime you are going to see more and more of these reports by various users as more people jump to W10 and projects get larger. You are going to have frustrated users who started C2 as a beginner and their C2 lags as their projects get more advanced. People who have moved on from C2 before Windows 10, are going to come back to a nasty surprise when they try and update old projects on their new W10 machine. I'll ask again because you have not answered, is none of this a concern to you? Do you not care about C2's performance on W10 despite the amount of users who have reached out and provided valuable feedback on this issue?

  • What is "artifacts"? Could you provide a very simple capx for this issue?

    rexrainbow

    it is seen using your demo capx. it is like the fans don't like up fully, you see split second "holes" as in the fan is off by a few pixels, as it counts down.

    using latest chrome using your demo .

    EDIT

    rexrainbow here is a screenshot of the issue (using your demo, unmodified in any way):

    Notice how the fans are not perfectly lined up (there is a break and you see the orange inbetween the fans)? This happens throughout the whole cooldown. At times, it is worse than others.

  • rexrainbow

    any idea?

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    I couldn't help but notice this line in your comment ASHLEY. I would have edited my previous post to include this response, but I did not want it to get lost in the previous message (for anyone who already read it).

    If you don't appreciate this and just keep blaming us for everything, it's hard to justify bumping it up the schedule over what others are asking for.

    That is not very professional like. You have literally dozens of people in this thread alone, trying to explain to you that their small projects are suffering from this bug and losing precious time to C2 spinning its gears. I would have thought, a whole major OS having issues running your software would have been a huge concern to you. I see now, I was wrong. My bad, sorry, I won't report any more bugs to you, I would hate to inconvenience you.

    This is not the way to get people to come forward with issues. To be perfectly honest Ashley, that comment was uncalled for and really talks down to your users. You are pretty much telling us, don't report bugs, don't tell me my software has any issues if you do you are going straight to the back of the line no matter what it is. And maybe, just maybe, I might get to it someday. That is the way you are coming off. Perhaps this is why so many users are not even bothering reporting this issue. A lot of the users who told me they have this issue had no care to even report it or comment on this thread because they assumed this is exactly how you would respond.

    I am just shocked is all. The complete disregard for a widespread issue on a major OS, and you say this issue is going to the back of the line because you don't like the issue at hand? You are making everyone on Windows 10 suffer. Put emotions aside, and think about the issue at hand. A whole platform, a whole major OS, is affected. Is that not a concern to you?

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    I think based on my previous post, there is good evidence the problem is not in C2 code and is in Windows code. If the problem is in C2's code, then on a setup that is slow slow that it takes 30 minutes to open a project, how come it can open a dialog in 1 second? And how come it varies across Windows versions? It seems very likely it's bottlenecked on Windows.

    Ashley, you have not provided any solid evidence that it is Windows issue. And, as stated, even if it was, ultimately it is your software that is suffering from it. As for the "worst case scenario" we are showing, we have shown in this thread, even smaller projects have the issue (the bigger project was a POC to show you the issue). If the issue was Windows, don't you believe all software would have issues? How do you explain me being able to run Android Studio, Plex, 2 VM's, Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator, all at once with zero issues but C2 lags?

    That, if anything, points to C2 is the issue.

    Now, it seems Microsoft have done an update that regresses performance in some of the code used to start up this dialog. This puts us in a tough spot. I genuinely don't think it's fair to blame us for this. It ***** and users just want it to work, but I think it is unhelpful to pressure us to act over something that the evidence points to being in Windows. Are you just letting Microsoft off the hook here? Why be so combative and blame us for everything?

    Fair or not, ultimately the issue lands on your lap. You have not proven it to be Microsoft. That is why the pressure is on you. If you have proven it to be Microsoft, how? What evidence do you have? Is this sufficient evidence? You are the creator of the software, if you believe Microsoft is to blame, do you not believe the onus is on you, not us, to approach Microsoft?

    It is possible that we could refactor all our dialog code and try to find another way to do things that is faster. There are a number of problems with this:

    - I can't reproduce the problem to the extent others report. So I don't know if the code I write will really help.

    - Some of the related APIs in Windows, especially the icon ones, are incredibly old, crufty and inflexible. It was a pretty big headache just getting it to work like it does. I'd expect it to be very difficult and time consuming to change, and it really ***** that we would basically be wasting valuable time trying to compensate for what looks like Microsoft's mistake.

    - There's no guarantee that a whole new approach would actually end up being faster. We'd still be using the Windows APIs, which the evidence points to being the problem.

    - Imagine about a dozen other threads where users are being just as insistent as here that we must do X, Y or Z, and right now. Time is by far our most limited resource. We simply cannot do everything right away. I've pointed out already that the bug report FAQ says to allow several weeks just for a review. I've tried to make a special effort to look in to this more quickly given the attention around it. If you don't appreciate this and just keep blaming us for everything, it's hard to justify bumping it up the schedule over what others are asking for.

    As previously stated, 1 second dialog is part of the issue. And, you need to load a project for a very long time sometimes to hit the larger performance issue. From your replies, you have not tried this. You also have not provided much to us for what you have tried.

    If you could,

    Exactly how long is C2 idling for Windows to do Icons in W10?

    How long is this taking in Windows 7?

    This might help determine if it is related to this area, or not.

    Again, the onus is on you because you do not provide the users (even though we have asked) the tools. You yourself, put yourself in this position by not giving us proper tools to diagnose the issue.

    Unfortunately I don't think we have any good options here. I genuinely don't know what is the best thing to do about this.

    At least Construct 3 isn't affected. For years many of our users insisted that native was better than HTML5 and the web would never be as good. How things have changed...

    I and others have provided plenty of options. You have dismissed them all.

    Essentially, and correct me if I am wrong, you are essentially ending C2 support as of this bug. You are letting a serious performance bug go without correction on W10, the current major OS used by many users. We are not talking about XP here, that would be understandable. This is the current OS you are no longer supporting.

    Is my understanding correct?

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    I did a quick check of the dialog opening code and it does indeed spend a lot of time adding icons to the dialog, which is handled by Windows.

    I really don't know what to do here ASHLEY. I have tried short replies, long replies, put realistic test cases and data points together which you have ignored, I have put together oodles of examples and data, I have proven that C2 is not performing properly, I have shown the issue is widespread (affecting over 90% of your W10 users), I have offered my own time ontop of the many hours (probably even days by now) to help. For the most part, you have been very unwilling to help, to debug the issue, and have overlooked almost every fact we have gathered for you. And all we get is a "quick check" into the issue, with no resolution or further details? Do you really not care about your users that much, that you would blatantly push this bug to the side? What do you want. How can we move forward in order to solve this issue with your software.

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    Ashley, I am having a really hard time here. It seems like you are not reading the post and details, I find myself repeating myself a lot. Mostly everything you ask is already posted in detail throughout this thread. Your understanding of the issue is also off. You are saying your machine is not affected, but then prove it is.

    Let's not play what-if games. That is a deep dark road. Let's get facts. And the first thing is finding out why your software is taking 1 second to pop a dialog on W10, while W7 is instant.

    You yourself, have shown it is taking 1 second for the dialog to pop. Now, grab a W7 machine and try it. You will see the dialogs open instantly.

    The first step to get over this issue is finding out why that dialog is taking 1 second versus being instant. What is it about C2 specifically that causes it, and is there a way to fix it?

    If you believe 1 second is "ok", please go back to my example of coding C3. Pretend every single line of code has a 1-second entry delay. How many lines of code did you write? 1000? 10,000? 100,000? That is how many seconds of your life you lose to an issue like this. 1 second is also not normal, as proven in this thread. It should be instant.

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    1 second to open a dialog seems usable. I cannot reproduce any issue with dialogs taking longer to start up, even with a setup that is so slow, the project takes 30 minutes to open.

    Windows 10 has been out for two and a half years, and Construct 2 has been out for over 6 years, and this issue only just got reported. The evidence in this thread seems to suggest a Windows Update caused the issue. If that is the cause, is it fair to ask us to pick up the pieces? The evidence so far seems to point more to an issue with Windows than C2. I don't have the tools to debug Windows either. Assuming the problem is in Windows itself, is it fair to pressure us in to fixing it?

    Sorry Ashley, but did you read my reply? I, in detail, responded to your concern here: https://www.scirra.com/forum/poor-c2-editor-performance-on-larger-projects_p1157406?#p1157406. Please give that a re-read as I had thought it was clear on why it is C2's issue and we need you to look into it further. Your response makes it sound like you have not listened to your users, and the mass amount of people reporting this issue. Also, just because it was just reported, does not mean it did not exist prior. I actually reported this months ago, and I have heard of another user reporting it months before that. I also found several users having the issue thinking it was normal. Chances are, it just went undetected until now. Fact is, there is an issue and you are now aware of it. It does not really matter at this point, how old C2 is, how old W10 is, or how long the bug has been out there for.

    Perhaps it is easier to have a skype meeting to discuss, so we are all onboard with what the issue is, and how to move forward? As BiffanyPFH just showed, he is just hitting the issue now and his project is nowheres near completion. That is a huge concern. You have a potentially very large issue and growing issue on your hands. That is not Microsofts problem at the end of the day, it is yours.

    To give you an example (a poor example, I am not good at these). Chrome updates all the time, and websites have to adapt to new standards. You hit this with C3, and will hit it in the future. Is it resonable to go to chrome and say "Sorry Google, your new update breaks my software, I don't want to keep up with the times, can you get rid of that new CSS standard you just implemented?" That is ignoring the fact that you have not proven this to be Microsofts issue, not C2. Even if it was Microsofts issue, it is your software affected and you have the ability to properly fix it, or create a workaround way before Microsoft can touch it. Software does this all the time. Many pieces of software, made many patches for W10. Each individual software, is responsible for how it runs and keeping up with the times. But like I said, first step is for you to properly prove it is Microsoft, and why (and in doing so, chances are you can find a solution on C2's end). So far, there is no such definitive proof. All we have shown is C2 is widespread broken on W10. There is no root cause determined yet. This is where you come in for support.

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    With a debug build I still can't reproduce any slowdown. The project is colossal and in my un-optimized build it took maybe 30 minutes to open. This suggests that anything that would be slow will be super-slow. However editing an action, or adding a new action, opens the dialog within around ~1 second.

    I have a fully-patched Windows 10 with the Fall Creator's Update - version 1709, build 16299.192. The CPU is an i7-6700K 4 GHz, but as I mentioned before, running a debug build of C2 with no optimisations usually more than cancels out any performance overhead from this high-end hardware. The fact the project took so ridiculously long to open is a good example of that.

    So I still can't reproduce any problem and I have no idea what might be happening. If the problem really is a recent Windows Update, then isn't the problem Microsoft's fault anyway? Is it fair to expect a small company to pick up the pieces of their mistake?

    Ashley,

    If it is taking 1 second to open, you are hitting the issue. That IS the issue (one of them at least, but this is the one I reported). If you go use a W7 machine, the dialogs are instant. Have you tried a non debug version of C2 with that project? Have you tried a W7 machine to compare? Have you tried another W10 machine? What exactly have you tried. From your responses, it seems you have not really done much debugging. We have collected a lot of data on this, have you even gone over it? To be honest, I am rather surprised at the lack of debugging and willing to work with us here on your software, when so many people have shown they have this issue.

    On another note (this has been mentioned before, but I think you might have missed it given your response), this has nothing to due with how powerful (or lack of power) your machine has. I can load up my CPU to 100%, or 0% and I hit this issue. I hit this issue in a low-end and high-end VM. I hit this issue on a high-end and low-end computer. My computer can run multiple VM's and servers at once, but yet C2 fails to work well compared to a old 6 year old laptop.

    It is not reasonable to ask Microsoft. They won't touch it. Not unless you can prove it is their issue and specifically with what (none of us users can do this, only you). WE (as in the users) don't know the real cause. Only you can find out the cause because you won't give us any debugging tools. You are the one who can look into C2 to determine the cause. All we did is a bunch of legwork. Ultimately, you are the key here to find out the issues root cause.

    Let's be honest here for a minute. Your software is broken on numerous (in very high numbers) of W10 users. That is a whole platform for a major OS. That is C2's problem.

    Only people with larger projects such as and I are affected the most (the projects don't even need to be that big). But, the issue still affects everyone. That is a huge concern for anyone on C2 who wants to grow their projects. That is a huge turn-off for anyone to even think about using C2. This again, is C2's problem.

    We have done our best to show you the issue. Believe me, this issue is huge in terms of productivity. Even 1 second lost per dialog is days to weeks of effort over the months. Imagine for a second, every line of code you created for C3 had a 1-second delay to write (meaning 10 lines of code carried a 10 second delay in total before you can write another line). Now, picture having to restart your computer every half an hour because that 1 second turns into 4-5 seconds. How frustrating would that have been to write C3? Please, find out why it is taking 1 second, when W7 is instant. This is the root cause (again, you need to find out, we cannot find out for sure) of a much larger performance issue which leads to dialogs taking 5+ seconds, when W7 is instant.

    I have done my best. It is completely in your hands ASHLEY. And to be completely honest, this thread should be used as a key factor for anyone who wants to use or buy Construct. It shows how willing you are to listen and to help users. As of right now, I have shown C2 is broken on a major platform, and you are unwilling to fix it. Please do your best to change that.

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    Thank you, everyone, for your help in testing out this bug.

    Ashley, now that I have shown there is an ample number of people with this issue (I hit a 90+% of W10 users with this issue), can you please prioritize this, and at the very least give an ETA on when this will be looked at.

  • There is only one word for this. *****

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    chadorireborn's project works approximately the same

    Note:

    Major increase in loading time.

    Longer delay of loading dialogs, some taking longer to load due to what looks like having to populate the menu with objects(5 to 7 seconds).

    Once that dialog has finished(events dialog) additional ones are average load times.

    Regular dialogs taking no longer than 2 seconds.

    The layout editor is sluggish, but switching between them is the same as normal.

    These are all about what I experience in regular development on my older machine.

    Side note:

    C2 crashed when closing

    It sounds like you are hitting the issue. Dialogs should not take 2 seconds, should be instant. This same project on my 6-year-old laptop, dialogs are instant.

    Same with the initial dialog on my end. The first time takes awhile, but after that, it should be instant. There should be no delay. Problem is, a lot of us are hitting an issue where every dialog is super slow - which shouldn't happen.

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    newt, try the one posted here:

    When you say no real performance issues, do dialogs pop instantly, or is there a delay (even if just 1 second)? When you click an action, count out 1 Mississippi, 2...On machines with no issue, I cannot even say "o" out loud (trying to say one) and the dialog pops. On machines with the issue, I easily hit 1 Mississippi. When the issue is worsened, such as in the project is completely unusable on machines that hit 1 second.

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    Update:

    I wanted to see how long I could go without a restart today and to prove my point that this whole 1 second dialog is not normal, and is part of the issue. This morning dialogs took 1 second to pop. Within a few short hours, the dialogs were taking 6-8 seconds. No load on the computer at all. No other applications were going slow. To test, I even opened Android Studio, Photoshop, 2 VM's, an Android Emulator, 20+ Chrome Tabs, and CS:Go. Literally nothing but C2 was lagging.

    After a reboot, back to one second (which, 1 second is still too much and is abnormal).

    This is not observed on my Windows 7 Machine. It goes all day without this slowdown.

    The big difference is, the Windows 7 Machine does not suffer from 1-second dialog pops each time. Whatever is causing the lag, seems to be the root of all evil here. Whatever is preventing that menu from caching correctly, compounds throughout the day and gets worse.